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Bad Students, Not Bad Schools

Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 10, 2010, 10:02:09 PM
Quote
Bad Students, Not Bad Schools is an Emperor’s new clothes book—it openly speaks the unspeakable: America’s education woes are caused by intellectually mediocre, unmotivated students, not “bad schools,” rotten teachers, faculty curriculum, lack of sufficient funding and similar alleged culprits. Alter the student population and push students harder, even if this means lowering their self-esteem and America’s schools will thrive. If mischief-makers refuse to learn, let them drop out! Politicians and professional educators avoid this awkward reality and prefer instead to squander billions while lurching from one guaranteed-to-fail gimmick after the next.

http://badstudentsnotbadschools.com/

All of us were or are students at some point. We all have been or met the rotten apples and we know these ruin all the apples in the barrel to some extent.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 10, 2010, 10:17:56 PM
Lowering someone's self esteem cant possibly be a good idea, instead teachers should be searching for the talents within the distracted unfocused kids.  I wasnt the best in school at all, i was never a shit disturber by any means, or a bad apple, but i lacked focus.  Great teachers angle your focus back to the important factors of education.  Alot of kids i knew hated school because it was another place to get abused, be it verbally and what not.  The kids that are just bad apples, well they should just be thrown into a more "disciplinary" school.  One less asshole kid, gives a teacher loads more attention to those who need the help, and less distraction for the ones who are easily distracted.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 10, 2010, 10:35:42 PM
Many of the educators I have met have been rather simple, average people.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 12:49:26 AM
Lowering someone's self esteem cant possibly be a good idea, instead teachers should be searching for the talents within the distracted unfocused kids.  I wasnt the best in school at all, i was never a shit disturber by any means, or a bad apple, but i lacked focus.  Great teachers angle your focus back to the important factors of education.  Alot of kids i knew hated school because it was another place to get abused, be it verbally and what not.  The kids that are just bad apples, well they should just be thrown into a more "disciplinary" school.  One less asshole kid, gives a teacher loads more attention to those who need the help, and less distraction for the ones who are easily distracted.

All your points are valid. Discrimination according to character and merit--how could that be wrong? Yet it makes also sense to not force education on the stupid or unwilling. Maybe compulsory education wasn't such a good concept in the first place. Sure, the groundwork should be available to everyone; but beyond that, delight in knowledge should be the prime motivation for learning. Today, knowledge is too often a slave of industry or practicality, and for this reason alone many children and students lack focus.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 02:40:14 AM
My mother was an elementary school teacher briefly, and several of my current circle of friend teach from early childhood to college and the vast majority of their experiences lead me to believe this man's reaction isn't totally unwarranted, and is probably more sane of a reaction than the school board will allow him.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 03:29:06 AM
Students are children. Children are not born with knowledge of the world, of life, of study. If the students are bad students, it is because there's is a bad school which has failed to teach them how to be good students. This is not a chicken-and-egg paradox.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 03:49:30 AM
Is equality to blame here?

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 08:03:00 AM
Equality and the compulsory nature of the arrangement as nous indicated.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 08:43:51 AM
Quote
Bad Students, Not Bad Schools is an Emperor’s new clothes book—it openly speaks the unspeakable: America’s education woes are caused by intellectually mediocre, unmotivated students, not “bad schools,” rotten teachers, faculty curriculum, lack of sufficient funding and similar alleged culprits. Alter the student population and push students harder, even if this means lowering their self-esteem and America’s schools will thrive. If mischief-makers refuse to learn, let them drop out! Politicians and professional educators avoid this awkward reality and prefer instead to squander billions while lurching from one guaranteed-to-fail gimmick after the next.

http://badstudentsnotbadschools.com/

All of us were or are students at some point. We all have been or met the rotten apples and we know these ruin all the apples in the barrel to some extent.

I agree with this guy, but the problem is manifold at this point. Schools are also mediocre, because they're dumbed down to try to teach the impossibly dumb something. It's prole drift. And as others have mentioned, teacher's unions and school boards just thrust self interest into the situation, ruining it further.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 09:11:40 AM
Problems with education:

1. Good students are used to teach the dumbest students.
2. Classes move as slow as the dumbest person in the class.
3. Not everyone should go to institutionalized, tax payer funded public schools.
4. Teachers are stupid, overly idealistic and have little regard for reality. Most teachers are liberals and comply with the overtly enlightenment esque agenda that "if we could just educate everybody the world would be better"
5. Schools are becoming leaders mainly in senstitivity training (See below) versus real world training. (Let the debates on what real world training should look like commence!)
6. There is a hidden politial agenda in schools, not recognized as political because it is commonly associated with "progress" (ie. multiculturalism, tolerance etc etc), that undermines the learning process.


Its neither solely bad students, nor solely bad schools.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 09:17:26 AM
I don't see the intrinsic harm in educating the dumb, or rather, I don't see a reason why they should be prevented from an education. A dumb person with an education is still of more value than a dumb person without one, right?

Hey maybe public education has brainwashed me but literacy can't be a bad thing.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 09:29:01 AM
I don't see the intrinsic harm in educating the dumb, or rather, I don't see a reason why they should be prevented from an education. A dumb person with an education is still of more value than a dumb person without one, right?

Hey maybe public education has brainwashed me but literacy can't be a bad thing.

If, has been pointed out by others in this thread, education is impeded by the presence of morons in the classroom, than the end result is an impeded education.  When a curriculum is slowed down to a crawl by the least of the student body, less information is presented, and necessarily in less challenging ways.  Most of the football players you see on TV each weekend are college graduates, and yet hardly any of them evidence even basic English comprehension skills and diction.  There's little evidence of the supposed sophistication a higher education provides because although many of them are attending above average universities, they're being provided with a below average education.  College football players (unfortunately) aren't lumped into classes with nothing but other football players.  Since these universities are more interested in having competitive football teams than producing scholars, the non-athletes in their classes are the recipients of a lesser education, too.  So, yes, we've introduced a bunch of college graduates into the system, but apart from playing football, what skills do they have?  And for those who don't play a sport but were caught in the morass of athlete education, their educations are dubious as well. 

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 09:39:29 AM
I don't see the intrinsic harm in educating the dumb, or rather, I don't see a reason why they should be prevented from an education. A dumb person with an education is still of more value than a dumb person without one, right?

Hey maybe public education has brainwashed me but literacy can't be a bad thing.

Where I live, there's a problem of colleges allowing dumb people to enroll so they could earn more money from tuition fees. As some people have already mentioned, the quality of education went downhill.

But you can always educate yourself, which I didn't manage very well, at least as well as I could. While I was studying, there were some punk girls who got the message pretty quick. They cheated on the worthless exams and studied only what was relevant and needed. I never learned to cheat, but got stoned while they were finishing their education.  Now they have well payed jobs and do their "punk thing" organizing shows / managing the scene in their spare time. Some guys from my stoning circle eventually learned to cheat and got ahead. On the other hand, I'm a college graduate having a menial job and barely surviving.

So there you go. You can always get smart, even if you get stoned.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 12:12:38 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not advocating No Child Left Behind type nonsense where the entire herd is slowed so we can protect the weakest and least valuable from the lions at the expense of our healthiest, but a strong society should educate all of its members. There can be no harm that comes from that as long as excellence isn't stifled.

Re: Bad Students, Not Bad Schools
October 11, 2010, 12:17:40 PM
Back when i was in high school there was certain classes for those who slowed down the learning process of their peers in regular classes.  Kind of the same with different math classes, there is the regular one, and one that is practically the bare minimum( easiest to pass).  Which in the end attracts the distracteed, and "dumber" kids, which keeps the other classes learning at the rate they are supposed to.  I dont think it is fair to say though that if there is one slow kid in the class, the entire class suffers, that has just never been the case in the schools i have been in.  The class proceeds at the pace it is supposed to be at, and for those who are left behind(if they give a shit) come in for extra work,help, after school help etc.  I guess the problem is the ones who dont value education, the ones who just stay in the class and fuck everything up on purpose(messing with the teacher etc.).  If you have kids like this that dont want to learn, and cant accept the help that is offered, then they shouldnt even be in school.  They should be placed  in, like i said before, more disciplinary schools.