The DLA "scene": users' own compositions

[Cargést]

What an absolute load of bullshit.  "Analytical types don't necessarily turn out to be great musicians".

[Iconocloaca]

What an absolute load of bullshit.  "Analytical types don't necessarily turn out to be great musicians".

_USUALLY_

It was a theory I was entertaining, anyways.

[Iconocloaca]

I think analytical people like the volk at ANUS usually don't have musical talent

Or more likely:

Most go on to more stable careers than music, and do it as a hobby. The placement of musical talent, drive and timing is a rare thing.

I have hope for the people here. For every one who complains too much, there are others who are constructive and enhancing life. They live on.

But just about everybody wishes they were a musician instead of plumber/mechanic/office drone/lifestyle counselor.

I hope you weren't insinuating I complain too much, even though I do.

[Cargést]

I was referring in general to Baroque (and, indeed, the majority of Classical), when I posted Bach's mug up there.  It's generally heavily "mathematical" (as far as I've heard), and I would suggest that an analytical mind would lend itself far better to similar mathematical pursuits than a creative mind (though, as with your suggestion, this is by no means meant to be a blanket statement, as there are exceptions to the vast majority of rules).  I'd even go so far as to say that Metal is an "analytical" form of music.  The compositions seem to me to be more designed and built than they are intuitively created.

[Iconocloaca]

I was referring in general to Baroque (and, indeed, the majority of Classical), when I posted Bach's mug up there.  It's generally heavily "mathematical" (as far as I've heard), and I would suggest that an analytical mind would lend itself far better to similar mathematical pursuits than a creative mind (though, as with your suggestion, this is by no means meant to be a blanket statement, as there are exceptions to the vast majority of rules).  I'd even go so far as to say that Metal is an "analytical" form of music.  The compositions seem to me to be more designed and built than they are intuitively created.

I suppose classical makes a good point against my theory, though I don't know much about the people who made classical other than some of their works.  Mozart might've been another exception to my "rule."

What metal bands could we consider "analytical," though?  Clearly not, say for example, Slayer.  But Gorguts, Atheist, Windham Hell would suggest the people behind them are.

Though, I think this is getting nowhere.  I regret making my "theory" already.

[Andrew]

I'm far from analytical, and yes music is just a hobby for me (and I'm 100% self-taught, since all my favorite musicians seemed to have stumbled upon brilliant ideas by accident, and learning how music works seems to take the fun and magic out of it for me).  

2. See Morttis' Født til å Herske for comparative cheese.

If you don't understand Mortiis' work, or why the "cheese" is necessary to the atmosphere (which carries the music) then you probably won't understand what I'm after either.  Getting people to understand it should be one of my goals, but I don't want to simplify it too much.

1. It's sloppy. There are very obvious tempo glitches all over this album. When performing something with a fixed tempo but no fixed timekeeper, use a metronome.

My thinking was it might add to the atmosphere.  I feel that it does (and could explain my thinking behind this if anyone is interested), but after the first album it becomes less forgivable, so I'll make more effort to be precise in any future works.

I wanted to like this, but it just went nowhere. The songs told no story.

Why does it need to tell a story?  Some music is about epic stories, some music is about celebration and dancing, some music is about just relaxation and being in the background.  This music is about atmosphere.  These are places, not stories.  Perhaps my next album will be more about the story within the places, but my music will always be about atmosphere first and foremost.  Its about transporting you to another world.  I'm showing you the world, not making you an active participant within the events (either of which would be perfectly good subjects for music).

Sorry, I don't want to sound defensive.  I just want you to hear what I do.  

 

How long have you been playing? What else have you done? I am curious, and not for malicious reasons.

I've been playing somewhat seriously for around five years or so.  I made two demos before this album, but I was around 16-18 when I made most of the songs, so they're pretty shitty.  Still I think they're interesting in the "teenager accidentally makes interesting atmospheric minimalist music" sort of way.  But then again, I might just be egotistical and wish to be like the early black metal guys.  Avoid them if you don't really like Seven Wonders. (I think they're on a few music-sharing blogs out there).

I understand the reasoning behind this, but do you realize this is the almost the same as saying "it's meant to be boring and shit"? fine, but why would anyone want to listen to it? I know that sounds like I'm being a dick but I've heard that excuse (in various wordings) from people who make a hell of a lot of money out of music - but still cant answer why they think anyone should bother listening to something thats deliberately shit. always consider what the listener is able to take positively out of a work.

I was thinking "emotionally monotonous" in the style of early Gregorian chant, and there's still a few of us weirdos around who are interested in listening to such things (for the music, not the history lesson).  Besides, your music, to my ears, suffers from the same "problem" (though monotonous in a darker voice), as I'll get to in a short review...

anyway. i'm funny about self promotion, but i guess its only fair to share some of my music in this thread now that ive seen fit to criticise other peoples work. Since its a metal forum I'll offer some metal:
www.hiarctow.com/music/beithioch

Ah, the Beithioch guy!  I've had Aisling Dhorcha and Díolaim in my collection for quite some time, not because I like them, but because of the anus connection.  Honestly, every time I try to listen to them I end up getting bored and turning them off.  On the other hand, I never made a serious effort to really "get" them, and since the composer came from anus I have always assumed that there was something to get, which is why I haven't deleted them yet.  So I suppose now is as good a time as any to give it a stronger effort.  I'm going to listen to Aisling Dhorcha more thoroughly.


I'm not going to pretend like I know what you did wrong, and what you could improve for me to get it.  Both of our works have failed for each other because each of us doesn't seem to hear what the artist hears, which I suppose is the problem for all artists that are even somewhat serious about what they're doing.  

But it's interesting that the same criticisms you made for my music, I have for yours.  The fact that it doesn't seem to go anywhere.  It's all tension, no release.  While I might've made the opposite mistake.  Also its got a strong "wandering" sort of quality, which is perfect for atmospheric music, but not "hvis lyset-type" black metal.  So I'd say get a much more focused structure, cut out all the weak parts.

I do appreciate the structural complexity.  It has earned my respect, but it doesn't connect with me on levels that matter, which I don't really have advice for since I think that requires an instinctual sort of vision.

It reminds me of I Shalt Become but lacks the atmosphere that makes a few albums from that particular project great.  

The Burzum influence might be a little too strong, but I can hardly criticize you for that considering the level of Mortiis influence on my own work.

I have no objective criticisms since I am self-taught and not versed in musical theory and jargon, all I know is that as a listener with a lot of the same tastes as anus.com, I found it boring.  I wrote this making a conscious effort to ignore the fact that you disliked my music.  I assume I am still allowed to dislike and comment on yours after that without being accused of having prior bias.  In this case I was lucky to have heard this album prior, so I know that I had these opinions on the music before having a potential subconscious bias.

I still have a sneaking suspicion that I'm just not getting it though... (averse sefira literally took me years to understand).  I'll give the other albums more listens too and let you know what I think if I have strong feelings about them.  Either way I think your albums probably deserve more attention here, unless there's another thread somewhere...

[MLK]

regardless of who teaches you or how, you still need to go through the fundamentals of what makes music work. The Gregorian chant you listen to is the foundation of western harmony and its based on Pythagorean ratios. Western music works the way it does because it is mathematically concordant. You have to grasp at some level the workings behind it in order to create something that is more than just note-bashing. Besides, the original death and black metal musicians are not quite as felicitous as you might think; places like Sweden and Norway had relatively high levels of musical literacy at basic school level.

modern society might put many analytical types off doing music, but it still needs smarts to be done well. Bach was from a long line of musicians who worked often for the church and were virtually guaranteed work as a result. the same is not possible for a musician these days.


Actually you nailed exactly what is wrong with my music. too monotonous. I've been working on that lately. It doesn't make a difference really to the listening experience but Aisling Dhorcha and the last release An Sealgaire were both recorded in 07 and until recently I hadn't written much metal since then. Plenty of time to improve I'd hope. Díolaim can be ignored.

The problem is more pronounced in your music though than in Beithíoch. obviously Its harder to sustain interest when you dont have a constant rhythm-section, but there is more to it than this. if you had stuck a beat under it and called it black metal it would still be harmonically & melodically stale (too much step-wise material, rhythmically too even, all around 3 to 4 notes long, not much real counterpoint) and structurally stuck. it also needs to be a lot tighter on tracks like Statue of Zeus.

You really don't need to simplify your music for more people to get it, cheesiness surely implies being already simplistic and relying on clichéd emotional cues. I know this is what you say you were going for, but why limit your aspirations to that?


If you do still want to give Beithíoch a go, i'd say go for Aisling Dhorcha (take it as a whole and listen to the mix from 09, its on the hiarctow site), listen to An Sealgaire if you can be bothered after and forget about the demo.

[Andrew]

It was Aisling Dhorcha I was listening to last night (and it was the whole thing).  I'll grab the 09 mix though, since what I have is undoubtedly the older one.  

But do you seriously think that it's impossible to accidentally stumble upon greatness in music without understanding theory?  Do you think Ildjarn had a solid understanding of theory?  It seems to me, as the black metal musicians get a stronger grasp on theory (as is clearly evident in later Emperor, for example), their music loses its soul.  It becomes almost a crutch for the uninspired.  Of course, I wouldn't advocate such an approach to classical music, but for music meant to sound primitive, such as black metal or this kind of synth-ambient, it seem entirely appropriate for the artist to be primitive when it comes to creating the music (which is possibly why most of the great black metal albums were made by the musicians before they even reached their mid-20's).  It's an attempt to take us back to a time of ignorance, where we were closer to the state of nature, where we were biologically meant to be.

[MLK]

I think that whether a musician gets their theory out of a book or school, or by getting a feel for it on their own the important thing is that they actually gain an awareness of what they're doing along the way. As a musician in the western tradition, using instruments pitched at 12 even semitones etc, the parameters for what works and what things represent are pretty much defined for you by the system/mathematics. Your job is simply finding out where those parameters lie - either doing it through theory (basically just reading up on what other people have already found out over the centuries) or by feeling your way through.

The impression i get is that Emperor were pretty aware of what they were doing early on. what changed is that they wanted to be rock-stars and started wanking off more and more on their encyclopedic knowledge instead of using it for something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6s7KSDdzG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWbJ7dfh1fE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixv-8rV-kDs


The only one-time member of Emperor (that i know of) who has really never shown that he has any idea what he is doing is Mortiis. Even from the sound of the newer albums he is seemingly still just as illiterate - reliant on broken phrases & vaguely rock flavored formats.

Yes I do think Ildjarn knew what he was doing. Hell, the impression I get even of something as prototypical and primitive as Discharge is that what marked them out was that they were more meticulous and musically aware than other punk bands.

[Andrew]

How is "getting a feel for it on their own" any different than being self-taught in the way I'm describing?  I'm obviously not suggesting all musicians go down this route, or that one should not think about how they're composing the music, I just don't think being "musically literate" in the western classical tradition is a prerequisite for composing potentially profound works.  There must be other paths.

I believe art evolves subconsciously due to a genuine, introspective need to create, originating from despair,
anger, hatred, lust or other states of the incomplete human psyche. If the word “art” is to be used, one
needs to know that art in fact makes itself, consequently to being uncontrollable. In failing to see this, the
works in question will only turn into the inane accomplishments of a craftsman.

Now he's not directly saying that he doesn't have knowledge of musical theory, but it sounds to me like what he is describing is letting one's instincts essentially take control, the art "creating itself" whether the person is educated in making the art or not.  I could be misreading it though.   What is your reasoning behind why you feel like he knew what he was doing?  

Also, I strongly disagree about Mortiis.  In fact, his influence is as strong in my music as Burzum is to yours.  I consider Lord Wind mediocre in comparison.  I could go on and give reasons why, but I think I'll make a separate thread for that, if so.

[indjaseemun]

I really enjoy mortiis early works too.

[MLK]

Ildjarn is talking about coming up with ideas, not musical literacy/awareness. cant remember who said it, but theres a relevang saying here; that one should learn theory etc and then to be a composer one should forget about it and just write. you cant really skip the first stage though, theres always an apprenticeship of sorts.

an analogy: you've got to know a language fairly well before you can write poetry in it, let alone speak it.

Ildjarn sounds very deliberate. riffs fit together very fluidly and sometimes even display a sense of basic contrapuntal thinking. his aim is simple on the surface, but he knows what he wants and how to do it.

getting a feel for it works for some (after a time), some require doing some reading. you should try doing some reading.

[Cargést]

I've always seen music theory as being an enabler.  Without it, you can stumble around a fretboard for hours hoping to randomly discover complimentary sounds; with it, some form of unconscious understanding of the instrument allows you to recognise which notes/chords/keys/etc. will follow on well from others.  You can discard the vast majority of combinations because you know that they'll not work well at all, either in the context of what you're trying to write, or in any context.

[Nimbostratus]

I've always seen music theory as being an enabler.  Without it, you can stumble around a fretboard for hours hoping to randomly discover complimentary sounds; with it, some form of unconscious understanding of the instrument allows you to recognise which notes/chords/keys/etc. will follow on well from others.  You can discard the vast majority of combinations because you know that they'll not work well at all, either in the context of what you're trying to write, or in any context.

I see music theory as a trainer for the ear. It helps you to categorize sounds.

[Forza Romana]

 return after a month. I just lost my computer's motherboard but I am back in business with a new motherboard and more memory ram!

Well, I only glanced at umbrage's comment, and whether or not that comment may apply to me, I believe my material to be very strong, and I will tolerate anyone who can criticize my work as long as they are justified. I have been creating my art form for many years, and my musical sense is very trained as i trained myself for 15 years plus. I do not look for attention here or anywhere else on the web. For surely if you have keep tabs on me, I am a tradition and honor bound person: My dealings are in person and with direct communication. My place on the internet is but a flash compared to others.

To clarify as well, any of this material you hear is being played live by me 2-4 times a month or more depending. I do not seek any monetary gain with my music. I only seek to share my art with you gentlemen here who I consider to be the best of the best, and we seek to escape this ill society. I digressed but thus as t'were....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ3A4ubffuI

My practice for today....