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Canonical Metal Collection

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 10:27:17 PM
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Definitely need help with the older heavy metal... know nothing about it!


Cynical got those listed. The big three are all NWOBHM Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.  Best album each:

Black Sabbath - s/t
Iron Maiden - Killers
Judas Priest - Stained Class

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 10:29:32 PM
I've always thought that "Paranoid" was better than Black Sabbath's s/t.  True, their eponymous track was the best song they ever did, but "Paranoid" is far more consistent, lacking a lot of the tedious overly blues-based material on the s/t.

The combination of War Pigs/Luke's Wall, Electric Funeral, and Hand of Doom is undeniable.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 10:56:51 PM
I don't desire any granular debate on albums, but Master of Reality would rank alongside Paranoid. Sweetleaf was an old classic with the local Hessian youth for readily apparent reasons. Into the Void takes us beyond the apocalyptic Christian hysteria and suggests that transcending such fabricated madness is always within our own power. Additionally, Iommi's guitar work, in my view, was a bit more profound or muscular, "cranked better" than in Paranoid. Lord of This World comes to mind.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 11:09:01 PM
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Cynical got those listed. The big three are all NWOBHM Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.


Priest and Maiden might be considered NWOBHM, but definitely not Sabbath.

Anyhow, here's some traditional stuff which might be deemed necessary:
Angel Witch - Angel Witch
Bifrost - Pagan Reality
Blitzkrieg - A Time of Changes
Bruce Dickinson - The Chemical Wedding, Skunkworks
Candlemass - Epicus Doomus Metallicus, Nightfall
Confessor - Condemned
Death SS - The Story of 1977-1984
Fates Warning - The Spectre Within, Awaken the Guardian
Fireaxe - Food for the Gods
Helstar - Nosferatu
Holocaust - The Nightcomers
Legend - From the Fjords
Pagan Altar - Volume 1
Satan - Court in the Act
Solitude Aeternus – Through the Darkest Hour
Witchfinder General - Death Penalty

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 11:13:03 PM
Helstar is good, but not necessary.  Same goes for Candlemass, except they're even further from the mark.

I haven't heard anything else on that list.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 15, 2006, 11:15:20 PM
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Helstar is good, but not necessary.  Same goes for Candlemass, except they're even further from the mark.


I'll go with that.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 03:46:07 AM
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Oh, and Balance- Aeturnus fucking sucks.  Sorry.

Elaborate, please. I find 'Beyond The Wandering Moon' to be satisfyingly excellent.

TC

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 10:05:13 AM
glad someone else said Confessor.  they influenced many bands, including Morbid Angel.  they are the reason Trey picked up a seven string.

and speaking to Maiden for a moment - i've always thought that Powerslave was their peak.  it culminates everything the previous few albums were building to and is extremely indicative of everything that was great about them.   1984 was a great year for metal with Powerslave, Ride the Lightning, etc....

and for more "heavy metal", where the hell is Mercyful Fate?  the first two albums need to be on this list at least.  and - no Motorhead?  Running Wild?

for the Bathory list, i think people are too quick to write off UTSOTBM.  the songs mentioned previously are great, as is a song like 13 Candles, possibly Woman of Dark Desires.  to me, this is the best of the first three Bathory albums.  it was foreshadowing BFD.

also, cynical you should really get Hammerheart.  this is essential Bathroy.  this is an album that singlehandedly created a genre of music and is a very memorable album.  it took balls to make after BFD and was worth the perceived risk.

as for ABITNS from Darkthrone, it's the first Darkthrone album i bothered to listen to more than once, when it came out.  for many people in this country, it was the first BM album, and the first to have that signature lo-fi sound.  in that sense, it spawned all the copycats.  and just to show how different opinions are, 'In the Shadow of the Horns' is probably my favorite song off that album; obviously, since Harkonin has covered it many times at shows and has the video up on the website.

so i guess i'm confused as to where we're going with this list - is it about albums that ceated/changed genres (i.e., "important" albums), is it about - as someone has said - the albums that moved you most, or is it about a band's best albums regardless of when they came out?  i think it's very important to think about the year certain albums came out and their relative relevency in that regard as well.

other things that confused me about cynical's list:
1) i don't see the point of having so many Suffocation albums on there.  granted, i've never been as "into" them as so many are, basically because i can't deal with the "alum mouth" vocals and the constant simultanious "snare-kick-hihat/ride" blasts.  but, i do see their poiint on this type of list.  i just don't see how  any later album is "better" or "more relevent" here, as they just seem to be a sort of self-parody at some poinit don't they?  also, if Suffo has three albums on this list, how do you justify no Cannibal Corpse albums?  at least the first one....
2) the inclusion of the Dismember album.  i do like them, don't get me wrong, but that album seems pretty derrivative of the other albums of the time.  i'd also apply this comment to Gorguts and Necrophobic.  if we're going to have these on here, then where is any Angel Corpse album?  Seance?
3) the inclusion of Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' bothers me.  i don't understand why you don't have the same complaints about this album as you do At The Gates' 'Terminal Spirit Disease'; it's not the sellout album that AJFA was, but it's certainly vastly different from their peak of RTL.
4) curious, but why skip Sepultura's 'Schizophrenia'?  and didn't Sarcofago pretty much cover any relevency that 'Morbid Visions/Bestial Devastation' have?

and re: Aeternus - i really love this band.  they've only put out one inferior album IMO.  i think 'Shadows of Old' is an untouchable album.  but, i also see the argument here that Aeternus could be considered a "gateway" band on this list - meaning, if you have Aeternus, why not Gehenna?  then if you have Gehenna, why not..... etc.

as for the speed/thrash/whatever influence, there are many albums that, when they came out, really changed things at the time.  here are a few from memory:

Razor - Evil Invaders - this was and still is IMO a monumental and essential album.  if i didn't have this album, i'd be pissed off.  so many great songs.  the same goes, to a point. for the next couple albums as well from them.

Whiplash - Power and Pain - again, an absolutely crushing and essential album.  Harkonin covered 'Last Man Alive' on the last album for good reason - this band practically created a sound that many have followed.  this album is essential, and the next album to a lesser extent.

Sodom - Persecution Mania - absolutely monumental album.

Sacrifice - Forward to Termination - amazing album.  i was torn between listing this and their debut, but i think this more accurately captures what they were about.  unfortunately, it was also their last good album.

Pestilence - Malleus Maleficarum - no one has created an album like this since.  i probably listen to its successor more, which is also great, but i think this album fits the list we're after here.  unfortunately, after the first two albums they crashed badly.

Num Skull - Ritually Abused - very unique album.  very good too.

Kreator - Flag of Hate/Pleasure to Kill - at least one of these needs to be on this list if this is a list of "important" albums to metal.  as i said, i guess i'm confused as to the goal of this list, but if it is albums that were important to creating a certain sound or albums that were very influential at the time, one of these needs to be on it.  

Carnivore - Retaliation - this has to have a place on a list like this.  genius album.

Destruction - Eternal Devastation - was this forgotten by accident?  this was an amazing album.

i could go on.  others that might be considered from that type of music:  Aggressor, Assassin, Blood Feast, DBC, Dark Angel's 'Darkness Descends', Darkness [GER],  Deathrow [GER] (particularly 'Raging Steel'), Forbidden's 'Forbidden Evil', Holy Moses' 'Finished With the Dogs', Macabre, Sabbat [UK] (first two), Sacrilege BC, Vio-Lence, Wargasm's 'Why Play Around?', Wehrmacht's 'Shark Attack', Zoetrope's 'A Life of Crime'.

then another question, as someone else has brought up:  where to more "hardcore" or "crossover" bands go on a list like this?  for your approval, i'd submit albums like:
Agnostic Front - first three
Black Flag - pick
COC - Animosity
Cro-Mags - Age of Quarrel
Crumbsuckers - Life of Dreams
DRI - Dealing With It
Die Kreuzen - s/t
Discharge - pick
Life Sentence - s/t
Minor Threat - pick
Samhain - pick
SOB
The Accused - pick
The Unsane - pick

do those have a place?  then, last question:  what about more "industrial" bands that had a huge influence on where metal went, like GGFH, Ministry, etc.?  do they get included?

anyway, breakfast time.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 10:19:37 AM
What about Possessed or maybe Alice in Chains album 'Dirt'?

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 12:09:05 PM
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and for more "heavy metal", where the hell is Mercyful Fate?  the first two albums need to be on this list at least.  and - no Motorhead?  Running Wild?

I've never liked Mercyful Fate, and Running Wild fucking sucks.  Some Motorhead should be on there, yes.

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as for ABITNS from Darkthrone, it's the first Darkthrone album i bothered to listen to more than once, when it came out.  for many people in this country, it was the first BM album, and the first to have that signature lo-fi sound.  in that sense, it spawned all the copycats.  and just to show how different opinions are, 'In the Shadow of the Horns' is probably my favorite song off that album; obviously, since Harkonin has covered it many times at shows and has the video up on the website.

In the Shadow of the Horns being one of your favorite Darkthrone songs explains a lot about Harkonin.  I'm not being sarcastic, either- there's a noticable stylistic similarity there.  

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so i guess i'm confused as to where we're going with this list - is it about albums that ceated/changed genres (i.e., "important" albums), is it about - as someone has said - the albums that moved you most, or is it about a band's best albums regardless of when they came out?  i think it's very important to think about the year certain albums came out and their relative relevency in that regard as well.

The list is albums that are essential to own in that they are of the highest artistic quality that metal has to offer.  Read the first post.

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1) i don't see the point of having so many Suffocation albums on there.  granted, i've never been as "into" them as so many are, basically because i can't deal with the "alum mouth" vocals and the constant simultanious "snare-kick-hihat/ride" blasts.  but, i do see their poiint on this type of list.  i just don't see how  any later album is "better" or "more relevent" here, as they just seem to be a sort of self-parody at some poinit don't they?  also, if Suffo has three albums on this list, how do you justify no Cannibal Corpse albums?  at least the first one....

Your quip about including Cannibal Corpse literally made me LOL.  Other than that, Suffocation didn't really descend into self-parody until "Despise the Sun".

Also, there are noticable style differences between the three albums.  Effigy is the most acerbic, and most speed metal influenced; Breeding is a precursor of much of "technical metal" to come, and has the longest phrase riffs of any Suffocation album; and Pierced builds remarkably complex songs from simpler elements.

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2) the inclusion of the Dismember album.  i do like them, don't get me wrong, but that album seems pretty derrivative of the other albums of the time.  i'd also apply this comment to Gorguts and Necrophobic.  if we're going to have these on here, then where is any Angel Corpse album?  Seance?

Obscura is derivative?  Riiight, I'll just leave that one there.  Otherwise, see first post to answer your question.

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3) the inclusion of Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' bothers me.  i don't understand why you don't have the same complaints about this album as you do At The Gates' 'Terminal Spirit Disease'; it's not the sellout album that AJFA was, but it's certainly vastly different from their peak of RTL.

Master of Puppets is excellent.  I see no reason why it shouldn't be on the list.
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4) curious, but why skip Sepultura's 'Schizophrenia'?  and didn't Sarcofago pretty much cover any relevency that 'Morbid Visions/Bestial Devastation' have?

Schizophrenia isn't as good as the albums that preceded and followed it.  Morbid Visions/Bestial Devastation is better than anything Sarcafago ever did.

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Razor - Evil Invaders - this was and still is IMO a monumental and essential album.  if i didn't have this album, i'd be pissed off.  so many great songs.  the same goes, to a point. for the next couple albums as well from them.

Whiplash - Power and Pain - again, an absolutely crushing and essential album.  Harkonin covered 'Last Man Alive' on the last album for good reason - this band practically created a sound that many have followed.  this album is essential, and the next album to a lesser extent.

Sodom - Persecution Mania - absolutely monumental album.

Sacrifice - Forward to Termination - amazing album.  i was torn between listing this and their debut, but i think this more accurately captures what they were about.  unfortunately, it was also their last good album.

Pestilence - Malleus Maleficarum - no one has created an album like this since.  i probably listen to its successor more, which is also great, but i think this album fits the list we're after here.  unfortunately, after the first two albums they crashed badly.

Num Skull - Ritually Abused - very unique album.  very good too.

Kreator - Flag of Hate/Pleasure to Kill - at least one of these needs to be on this list if this is a list of "important" albums to metal.  as i said, i guess i'm confused as to the goal of this list, but if it is albums that were important to creating a certain sound or albums that were very influential at the time, one of these needs to be on it.  

Carnivore - Retaliation - this has to have a place on a list like this.  genius album.

Destruction - Eternal Devastation - was this forgotten by accident?  this was an amazing album.

Sodom is the only one of these that I'd consider.  Pestilence is good but not that good, Kreator is pretty lame, and I haven't heard the rest.


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then another question, as someone else has brought up:  where to more "hardcore" or "crossover" bands go on a list like this?  for your approval, i'd submit albums like:
Agnostic Front - first three
Black Flag - pick
COC - Animosity
Cro-Mags - Age of Quarrel
Crumbsuckers - Life of Dreams
DRI - Dealing With It
Die Kreuzen - s/t
Discharge - pick
Life Sentence - s/t
Minor Threat - pick
Samhain - pick
SOB
The Accused - pick
The Unsane - pick

do those have a place?  then, last question:  what about more "industrial" bands that had a huge influence on where metal went, like GGFH, Ministry, etc.?  do they get included?

anyway, breakfast time.

This is a metal list, not a hardcore list.

TC

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 01:24:26 PM
just quickly:
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This is a metal list, not a hardcore list.

true, but to say that there aren't many, many metal bands that garnered influece from the hardcore bands that came before them is ignorant.

and i said that was my favorite DT song off that album.

more later.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
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by posting here i assume you're looking for opinions of others


Not necessarily correct assumption: I am looking for collaborators.


Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 01:32:42 PM
I realize that much of metal was influenced by hardcore, but this is still strictly a metal list.  Otherwise, I'd be including Led Zeppelin, Kiss, AC/DC, and all sorts of other shit that we don't want to include.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 16, 2006, 01:32:43 PM
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Angel Witch - Angel Witch
Satan - Court in the Act
Witchfinder General - Death Penalty


I think these are fair additions, although I think the "Satan" CD belongs more on a historical list than a canonical one as the music quality is tedious.

Re: Canonical Metal Collection
July 17, 2006, 12:09:35 AM
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3) the inclusion of Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' bothers me.  i don't understand why you don't have the same complaints about this album as you do At The Gates' 'Terminal Spirit Disease'; it's not the sellout album that AJFA was, but it's certainly vastly different from their peak of RTL.

Kind of agree but overall I think MoP was the best.

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Pestilence - Malleus Maleficarum - no one has created an album like this since.  i probably listen to its successor more, which is also great, but i think this album fits the list we're after here.  unfortunately, after the first two albums they crashed badly.

I like Spheres and think it would be great for this list.

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What I'm thinking of is a list of band that anyone open-minded and musically/artistically aware can pick up and listen to, and understand metal for its core of thinkers and actors and not its imitators.


I'm confused here, is this the goal still or is it now to make broadened best ever lists?