America should have avoided making black metal

[scourge]

I'm still not seeing much in the way of American BM save for Averse Sefira and Demoncy. Looking back over four evolutionary waves now, Black Metal was evidently Northern European, meaning not just heredity but surrounding culture as well. Butthole Surfers and later, Ministry, and Canadians DBC were shaping up as the American thrash successors for a parallel to death metal around when black metal was rising in Europe.

Much excellent death metal has come from three continents. So, for a distinctly regional North American alternative, a post-thrash industrial metal was the better path. Emulating their cousins abroad was not the wisest course for American underground.

[Andrew]

I Shalt Become and Judas Iscariot both have their moments.  I'm still not sure how I feel about Profanatica/Havohej.  I don't think the people should be blamed though, after all, most Americans are growing alongside nothing but modern culture.  The only "traditional" things in American culture were fairly modern when they were created so it can only be expected that when Americans approach art it will usually be on the verge of retardation, feral and primitive, or hopelessly depressing.  Americans experience the toxic intoxication of modernism the strongest, and it has destroyed our minds moreso than the rest of the western world.  (I'm just making a wild speculation btw)

[aquarius]

Profanatica and Demoncy are uniquely American in style and I'm greatful for their early works but otherwise I agree that quality black metal is exclusive to Europe where the integral culture is much different. Even Swedish style of death metal was more epic and atmospheric so I think it's a natural progression, barring that it's not really atmosphere that's atractive about death metal so I prefer American death metal in that respect.

[scourge]

Americans experience the toxic intoxication of modernism the strongest, and it has destroyed our minds moreso than the rest of the western world.  (I'm just making a wild speculation btw)

That's what I'm driving at. Industrial is a better fit from the wellspring of the Americanism that is being exported.

Speed metal tapered off as it had to with the Cold War end. Mass nuclear death isn't in the public mind as it was then.

Exodus put forth a type of antithesis to the prevailing glamorizing of the modern criminal life with albums Fabulous Disaster and Impact is Imminent. FD in particular was a mini thematic crossover with both Cold War nuclear death of the prior era and horrors of criminal life and the justice system for the coming 90s. After FD and Impact came Force of Habit, an attempt to portray the so called human condition generally. So, briefly a unified thesis about the modern human condition was building in American underground metal in parallel to death metal.

Afterthoughts:

Criminul Black Metal is where some of the American bands landed instead.

[Andrew]

On the other hand, though Americans have been largely unsuccessful in their black metal attempts, I don't think that they should have avoided it entirely.  If black metal is a desperate search for something forgotten, it would seem Americans would need this sort of escape more than most, they are just culturally further from whatever it is we're trying to recover, so it is difficult for them to grasp it in their own creations.  But when they do manage to break through, I think it is quite powerful in the intensity of the loss and despair (but loss of something is crucial, not just loss and despair for the sake of loss and despair, like the shitty "depressive" fad).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlk7x7JnU8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC03Rub1jbI

[Umbrage]

I don't mind American black metal. As someone else already stated in this thread bands like Profanatica and Demoncy have different styles compared to the Europeans. And they are as old as the old second-wave European acts so they deserve some respect for that. The Americans simply shouldn't have tried to copy the Norwegian style after it became popular (Judas Iscariot springs to mind very quickly) But that goes for all countries. And they should have avoided making "zomg-I'm-so-br00tal" concept BM using lesser techniques (Black Witchery, Krieg, both these bands are parodies of BM) but that probably also goes for other countries too.

American industrial metal? Now there's a reason to use a neutron bomb! Industrial is disco mixed with loud guitars, its not metal. It's rock music comparable to nu-metal: it combines elements from popular dance music and mixes them with loud guitars. I prefer three semi-decent American BM bands over a whole wave of shitty industrial emo music with vocalists who all sound like they're gurgling cum in a megaphone while dying of AIDS.

[scourge]

And they are as old as the old second-wave European acts so they deserve some respect for that.

Wait, did you just sell two worthy bands short? They stuck around a long time and they have a different style. These are the grandfathers of non-merits. Maybe CoF will get such deserved props around here as well.

[Cargést]

Korn are as old as most second wave Black Metal bands.  Does that make them worthy of respect?

[Umbrage]

And they are as old as the old second-wave European acts so they deserve some respect for that.

Wait, did you just sell two worthy bands short? They stuck around a long time and they have a different style. These are the grandfathers of non-merits. Maybe CoF will get such deserved props around here as well.

Nice one. So because I think Profanatica and Demoncy deserve respect for being "old and unique" you feel the need to attack the whole forum by wondering whether CoF will get the same respect here? Seems to me you just don't have any good arguments to explain why you think a wave of industrial rock would have been better than a handful of decent American BM bands.

[Humanicide]

Forgive me for being blunt, but the thread title alone is fucking stupid.

Krieg, Profanatica/Havohej, Black Funeral, Averse Sefira, VON, Demoncy, Absu, and Judas Iscariot have all made works which surpass much of black metal. In fact, my personal preference holds these bands in higher regard than some Norwegian bands. But personal preferences aside, saying someone should avoid making a particular kind of music is absurd. How does one know the potential of a particular artform without exploring various interpretations of said artform? Are we really going to relegate certain kinds of metal to ONLY this part of the world, and no other? How ridiculous.

If you don't find anything redeeming in US black metal, scourge, that's your prerogative. But just as I cannot stand Candlemass, or Gorguts, I respect the craft and quality of music those acts have produced, even if I personally think all of said bands' music is shit. You're letting your personal judgment stand in as objective analysis. I'm in agreement with Umbrage with respect to industrial as well. Godflesh, Throbbing Gristle, maybe a few more bands; but mostly a worthless genre.

[Conservationist]

I'm still not seeing much in the way of American BM save for Averse Sefira and Demoncy.

The yardstick for black metal should be the Norse canon 1989-1993:

1. Immortal
2. Emperor
3. Burzum
4. Mayhem
5. Darkthrone
6. Enslaved

I would also add:

7. Gehenna
8. Graveland
9. Gorgoroth
10. Varathron
11. Ildjarn

If it doesn't live up to those standards, throw it out. USA has produced Demoncy which lives up to these standards, and Averse Sefira is a good secondary option. Havohej waffles between angry artistic/autistic noise and some really profound stuff. Nothing on early Immortal; that one Demoncy album might stand among the Norse mostly shoulder to shoulder

Profanatica and Demoncy are uniquely American in style and I'm greatful for their early works but otherwise I agree that quality black metal is exclusive to Europe where the integral culture is much different.

UK never produced any quality black metal either; how did other mixed cultures do? Mexico had Avzhia/Xibalba; Brail had Sarcofago. Finland did well. Sweden did OK. Norway did great. And then outliers in Greece and Poland.

[scourge]

you think a wave of industrial rock would have been better than a handful of decent American BM bands.

Now we have a strawman

[Cargést]

UK never produced any quality black metal either

Don't worry, I'm working on this.  Though, I might be Canadian by the time I finish.

[Umbrage]

you think a wave of industrial rock would have been better than a handful of decent American BM bands.

Now we have a strawman

How is that a strawman?

I'm still not seeing much in the way of American BM save for Averse Sefira and Demoncy.

There we have the handful of bands.

So, for a distinctly regional North American alternative, a post-thrash industrial metal was the better path. Emulating their cousins abroad was not the wisest course for American underground.

There you are saying that a wave of industrial would have been better.

Comparing my respect for Demoncy because they're old with having respect for CoF because they're old... now that's a strawman. But you didn't hear me bitch about that, did you? Why are you being so sensitive anyway?

[Athanasius contra mundum]

So, for a distinctly regional North American alternative, a post-thrash industrial metal was the better path. Emulating their cousins abroad was not the wisest course for American underground.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on American black metal, but don't you think these acts proved irrefutably that North America's hope was best placed in death metal?

Morbid Angel
Deicide
Atheist
Obituary
Incantation
Suffocation
Morpheus Descends

Also there's Autopsy and Gorguts, and a whole slew of other great death metal acts from the states, although nothing that really matches the profundity of the above names.