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America should have avoided making black metal


Looking back over four evolutionary waves now, Black Metal was evidently Northern European, meaning not just heredity but surrounding culture as well.

sarcofago is from northern europe?

it's disrespectful to this band when people claim that all of black metal derives from northern europe.

euronymous WAS influenced by sarcofago. burzum WAS influenced by von.

Sarcofago was influenced by Discharge, Hellhammer, Bathory, Slayer, Possessed and Sodom and is not materially different from them. Most of the Von riffs or very close analogues appear on the early Sepultura EPs anyway.

If you took Discharge and Judas Priest in a vacuum, you'd end up with black metal. The Norwegians just did it to a grand scale previously unimagined, and ended metal music as a result.

I'm merely stating that Relativism is not the same as Subjectivism, though people often use Relativism (incorrectly) to support Subjectivism.

It shouldn't be -- but historically, Relativism is less related to relativity than to Subjectivism of a liberal sort. Sorry, it sucks and is linguistically inaccurate. I don't see many people who endorse "relativity" (scientiic concept) also endorsing "relativism" (political concept, indistinguishable from primary liberalism).

Because this subject comes up again and again, and almost seems to be an inevitable point of termination in any thread where there is a dispute over the quality of a given piece of music, it might not be a terrible idea to actually make a sticky post for the subject. The argument could be hashed out there and banned from any other thread. I think it's pretty clear that the point is contentious enough that it's going to continue to pop up. This way, it can be discussed in a contained way without derailing discussions and demoralizing/exhausting people.

You are right: we should clarify.

I guess the idea of people using objective argument to "prove" subjectivism always cracks me up, as does the idea that patterns of rhythm and tone which have certain influence on the human nervous system somehow being "subjective." But that's a convenient cover story for the losers out there who want to justify their shitty music.

Let's follow your logic then. Isn't it more compelling to state that Jesus Christ and his distant Pope influenced Norwegian black metal?

obviously....all things are connected, in SOME sort of way.

but i think the difference is that jesus christ has had an influence, on not only black metal...but on death metal, along with MANY other subjects in this world.

so why you say that jesus christ's influence is somehow specific to black metal, which seems to be what you're implying, is kind of stupid, i'm sorry to say.

so that's why i think it makes more sense to focus on an early black metal band when it comes to it's influence on black metal...instead of using something as generic as an entire religion.

Summon is a good thrash black band from the US.
They were a death metal band back in the 80's, but they switched to thrashy black metal and they do it well.

There are too many bands like Hipsters in the Throne Room though for me to deny that there is a problem with the US black metal scene.

All I'm hearing is because we have cars (the only worthwhile ones came out of the Motor City), we should rewrite history books to call chariots, wagons and carriages Detroit cars as well.

Im really surprised this thread has poked along this far. Deadite said it best " The thread title alone is fucking stupid"

The "who came first" name game is so childish. Who's to say Sarcofago wouldn't have made the music they made had it not been for Discharge,Sodom, Possessed etc. or not?

America shouldn't have avoided making black metal. OP should avoid America.


Absu.                                                         
Black Torment.                                         
Krieg. (is not a parody of black metal)                 
Profanatica. (previously mentioned)                                           >                                   YOU   
Chaos Moon.
Thornspawn.
The Rattlesnake Totem.
Octagon.


Not really.  Absu and Profanatica have good material.  You've missed out Averse Sefira.  Those other bands I haven't even heard of, for the most part, so I doubt their legitimacy - despite the "underground" aspect of Metal, good bands are generally well known to people, generally because they're good enough that people will talk about them.

You can trust my opinion - I'm Northern European.

Throw all of these out and the very best of black metal remains.

Absu.                                                         
Black Torment.                                         
Krieg. (is not a parody of black metal)                 
Profanatica. (previously mentioned)                                           >                                   YOU   
Chaos Moon.
Thornspawn.
The Rattlesnake Totem.
Octagon.



Not really.  Absu and Profanatica have good material.  You've missed out Averse Sefira.  Those other bands I haven't even heard of, for the most part, so I doubt their legitimacy - despite the "underground" aspect of Metal, good bands are generally well known to people, generally because they're good enough that people will talk about them.

You can trust my opinion - I'm Northern European.

"Good bands"? Ok, Mr. Subjective, I'll take your word for it. As for your supposed Northern-European-ness...all that means to me is that your penis is probably uncircumcised. Furthermore, I didn't accidentally leave out Averse Sefira. Averse Sefira sound uninspired to me. Your claim that "good bands are well known to people, so since I haven't heard of a band, it isn't good" is just a way for you to justify your ignorance of the bands I mentioned. Have fun NOT learning about more music because after all, "if you haven't heard of it already, it must suck."

Not really.  Absu and Profanatica have good material.  You've missed out Averse Sefira.  Those other bands I haven't even heard of, for the most part, so I doubt their legitimacy - despite the "underground" aspect of Metal, good bands are generally well known to people, generally because they're good enough that people will talk about them.

You can trust my opinion - I'm Northern European.

"Good bands"? Ok, Mr. Subjective, I'll take your word for it. As for your supposed Northern-European-ness...all that means to me is that your penis is probably uncircumcised. Furthermore, I didn't accidentally leave out Averse Sefira. Averse Sefira sound uninspired to me. Your claim that "good bands are well known to people, so since I haven't heard of a band, it isn't good" is just a way for you to justify your ignorance of the bands I mentioned. Have fun NOT learning about more music because after all, "if you haven't heard of it already, it must suck."

No, because most bands in metal suck anyway. It's a negative, but ultimately realistic viewpoint.

Averse Sefira sound uninspired? You need to give them another listen. They're much more complex than meets the eye. (Or ear in this case)

*Yawn*

I think everyone posting here needs to shut up and put on some Profanatica. If it's not the "very best of black metal" according to you, then great. Go listen to the best. Have fun.

Profanatica's early demos are some of the blackest recordings i have ever heard.


Excluding his experimental pieces with Havohej, Paul Ledney never got around to doing anything worthwhile until 2007.

Excluding his experimental pieces with Havohej, Paul Ledney never got around to doing anything worthwhile until 2007.

So you dont think early Profanatica is worth listening to?

My favorites...   "Putrescence Of..." "Broken Throne of Christ" "Broken Jew" and the "Passion Of A Liar" single