Revisitation (Crushing Idols)

[JewishPhysics]

In light of this suggestion:

We revisit the full catalogs of bands in the past, and figure out which of these albums really are essential, and which ones could go away and we wouldn't miss much.

Looking at the Dark Legions Archive of bands, how many of these are truly worthy of praise?

To start in the Black Metal section, does anybody have any legitimate defense for the inclusion of any of the following:

1) Black Goat
2) Dimmu Borgir
3) Marduk
4) Mortiis
5) Ophthalamia
6) Pervertum
7) Watain

Just to start.

[scourge]

They could keep the published content, but distinguish the second rate artists from the pioneers in a See Also page listing. But the quantity of bands that have already been excluded is already thankfully at least a hundredfold larger. One page isn't a daunting listing if you have a long afternoon dedicated to reading.

[JewishPhysics]

They can do whatever they like with their website.  The fact that it creates a longer page with more reading has nothing to do with what I'm asking.  I'm questioning the very legitimacy of these bands in and of themselves.  I was basically just using the DLA as a reference point.  I'd ideally, in accordance with Cons' suggestion, like to revisit a much wider range of bands.  I simply chose a few (semi-arbitrarily) that I thought stood out as odd inclusions.

[roshan]

Dark Funeral, Dark Tranquility, Marduk and Watain are honestly not even worth a listen.

[Umbrage]

Ophthalamia has only one song reviewed because its on a compilation. Same goes for Mortiis.

Dimmu Borgir, Marduk and Watain get negative reviews apart from one album each (Stormblast, Opus Nocturne and Rabid Death's Curse - I suppose Watain could use more negative reviews because that band really went downhill a long way)

Pervertum is slammed. Black Goat gets praise. Both are obscure bands whos status can't be compared to the formerly mentioned bands.

I'm not sure what OP wants to achieve with this thread. Apart from Black Goat all the bands he listed do not get praised so it seems his approach is wrong. And what is the intention anyway? Do you want the DLA to have less reviews?

We revisit the full catalogs of bands in the past, and figure out which of these albums really are essential, and which ones could go away and we wouldn't miss much.

I liked this idea too but let's play it less easy and avoid the bands we know most here dislike anyway such as Dimmu Borgir. Instead I'd like to ask if you were sent to a desert island for five years and were allowed to only bring one Averse Sefira cd, which would it be? kind of questions. Let's dissect what we like and leave the rest to rot.

[ChapelOfTorment]

Wow, this Black Goat album is pretty cool. Thanks for inadvertently drawing my attention to it.

[Conservationist]

does anybody have any legitimate defense for the inclusion of any of the following:

1) Black Goat
2) Dimmu Borgir
3) Marduk
4) Mortiis
5) Ophthalamia
6) Pervertum
7) Watain

I always thought the archive should have gone the way the tabs at the top suggested: a big list of bands, with some flagged as historically important and others as artistically important/really good ("best of").

Dimmu, Marduk, Mortiis, Ophththlahamiha, Pervertum and Watain were all important in their way, historically. Watain showed us post-DMDS candypop black metal. Dimmu represented the rise of Norwegian black metal crossed with Cradle of Filth. Pervertum represented one of the paths people tried to take to make more black metal of intensity, analogous to the "most brutal" competition of mid-period death metal. Ophthtetc showed us another attempt. Mortiis is there for the same reason and for the badass Emperor lyrics. Black Goat is defensible heavy metal.

[JewishPhysics]

I'm not sure what OP wants to achieve with this thread. Apart from Black Goat all the bands he listed do not get praised so it seems his approach is wrong. And what is the intention anyway? Do you want the DLA to have less reviews?

This was kind of addressed, wasn't it?

I liked this idea too but let's play it less easy and avoid the bands we know most here dislike anyway such as Dimmu Borgir. Instead I'd like to ask if you were sent to a desert island for five years and were allowed to only bring one Averse Sefira cd, which would it be? kind of questions. Let's dissect what we like and leave the rest to rot.

I was going to start simple, but if you'd rather jump right in..  My answer would be none.  I've always found AS to be far less than the some of its parts.  The ideas are all there, but the execution just seems lacking.

I always thought the archive should have gone the way the tabs at the top suggested: a big list of bands, with some flagged as historically important and others as artistically important/really good ("best of").

Dimmu, Marduk, Mortiis, Ophththlahamiha, Pervertum and Watain were all important in their way, historically. Watain showed us post-DMDS candypop black metal. Dimmu represented the rise of Norwegian black metal crossed with Cradle of Filth. Pervertum represented one of the paths people tried to take to make more black metal of intensity, analogous to the "most brutal" competition of mid-period death metal. Ophthtetc showed us another attempt. Mortiis is there for the same reason and for the badass Emperor lyrics. Black Goat is defensible heavy metal.

In that case, isn't that what they're doing?  I was under the assumption that the DLA was focused on only promoting the absolute best and that they specifically weren't interested in doing negative reviews.  Regardless, it seems the idea of purely historical importance doesn't fit many of the bands you mentioned.  Only when viewed in an incredibly narrow framework, do they really have historical significance or merit.  In the larger picture, they really don't mean much.  I could really only see their inclusion justified under the notion of constructing a comprehensive evolutionary chart of Death and Black Metal.

[Umbrage]

I liked this idea too but let's play it less easy and avoid the bands we know most here dislike anyway such as Dimmu Borgir. Instead I'd like to ask if you were sent to a desert island for five years and were allowed to only bring one Averse Sefira cd, which would it be? kind of questions. Let's dissect what we like and leave the rest to rot.

I was going to start simple, but if you'd rather jump right in..  My answer would be none.  I've always found AS to be far less than the some of its parts.  The ideas are all there, but the execution just seems lacking.

I prefer jumping right in. Here's my "top 8 of essential B+ albums that are reviewed in the DLA"  I won't defend these albums and I won't make any statements about what constitutes an A+ album, I assume everyone knows about all that already. If this thread turns into bitching about what albums people are mentioning then it will go nowhere anyway. So ignore what you dislike and repost what you do like (if you feel like playing along) My list is in alphabetical order and is only about the black metal section of the DLA.

Absurd - Facta Loquuntur
Belial - Wisdom Of Darkness
Conqueror - War Cult Supremacy
Demoncy - Joined In Darkness
I Shalt Become - Wanderings
Impaled Nazarene - Ugra Karma
Profanatica - Collection
Sort Vokter - Folkloric Necro-Metal

Those are the B+ albums that I expect to remain good. Runners up that get an occasional spin would include Frozen Shadows and Sorcier des Glaces but I don't think as highly of those albums as I do of the top 8. So basically in the event of a fire if all the A+ albums are safe I'd run back into the burning building for those 8 albums and I'd let the rest melt. Or if I had to take my 8 most favorite B+ albums and shove them up my ass those would be it (I added the I Shalt Become album for lube)

[JewishPhysics]

Absurd - Facta Loquuntur
Belial - Wisdom Of Darkness
Conqueror - War Cult Supremacy
Demoncy - Joined In Darkness
I Shalt Become - Wanderings
Impaled Nazarene - Ugra Karma
Profanatica - Collection
Sort Vokter - Folkloric Necro-Metal

I'd definitely second Joined in Darkness and Ugra Karma, the latter of which seems generally underrated but I think the DLA review got it spot on.
Two other albums I think are of note would be:
1) NME - Unholy Death
2) Mayhem - Wolf's Lair Abyss

Two bands that I think are unfortunately overrated:
1) Graveland - I really don't think any of their material compares to the Lord Wind output (of which Atlantean Monument is obviously Darken's greatest musical output) or most of the A level Black Metal bands
2) Gorgoroth - Even their early material reeks of being derivative and unimaginative

[roshan]

I'd say the following bands are absolute essentials (and their good albums that I've listened to, although not all the albums listed may be essential):

Burzum (Burzum, Aske, Det Som Engang Var, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, Filosofem)
Emperor (Emperor, In the Nightside Eclipse)
Gorgoroth (Pentagram, Antichrist, Under the Sign of Hell)
Immortal (Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism, Pure Holocaust)
Enslaved   (Hordanes Land, Vikingligr Veldi)
Mayhem (De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas)
Bathory (Blood Fire Death)
Sacramentum   (Far Away From the Sun)
Graveland (In the Glare of Burning Churches, The Celtic Winter, Carpathian Wolves, Thousand Swords, Following the Voice of Blood)
Lord Wind (Forgotten Songs, Heralds of Fight, Rites of the Valkyries, Atlantean Monument)
Summoning (Minas Morgul, Dol Guldur, Nightshade Forests, Oath Bound)
Beherit (Drawing Down the Moon, Engram)
Darkthrone (Under a Funeral Moon, Transilvanian Hunger)

Rather than giving other classic albums letter grades, I'd rather simply divide them into an upper and a lower echelon, for example:

Upper Echelon:

Fullmoon (United Aryan Evil)
Veles (The Triumph of Pagan Beliefs, Night on a Bare Mountain, Black Hateful Metal)
Necromantia (Crossing the Fiery Path, Scarlet Evil Witching Black)
Rotting Christ (Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam)
Varathron (His Majesty at the Swamp)
Impaled Nazarene (Ugra Karma)
Belial (Wisdom of Darkness)
Branikald   (Stormheit, Rdjandalir)
Gehenna   (First Spell)

Lower Echelon:

Behemoth (From the Pagan Vastlands, And the Forests Dream Eternally)
Sorcier Des Glaces    (Snowland)
Blut Aus Nord   (Ultima Thule)
Manes (Under Ein Blodraud Maane) (I haven't listened to this one much yet though, so this is an early impression)
Mysticum   (In the Streams of Inferno)
Ancient (Svartalvheim)
Barathrum (Eerie)
Ulver (Bergtatt)
I Shalt Become (Wanderings)

I think a three tiered system for ranking quality black metal should suffice. I would say that all three tiers are worthy of inclusion (although perhaps the DLA could be limited to the first two tiers), with anything bands and albums below third tier status being discarded. I'd say the following bands do not make it:

Marduk, Watain, Dark Funeral, Dark Tranquility
As well as albums like "Belus", "Frost", "Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk" etc.

[nothingnowhere]

Does anyone really want to go to an entirely separate page to view different albums (for instance, ITNE and Anthems) by the same band? Sounds more clunky than anything.

[lord.aspie]

Does anyone really want to go to an entirely separate page to view different albums (for instance, ITNE and Anthems) by the same band? Sounds more clunky than anything.

I think this is a good point, but maybe keep the minimum standard for DLA "lower echelon" or B grade albums, and dump everything else into a "sadistic reviews" type page for mockery purposes, or just pull what doesn't make the cut completely?

I like the idea of removing the fat just because it's a more positive outlook.

[Chains]

I believe there's a lot of B level albums listed simply because of the date they were released.  It would probably be a good idea to either throw all of them in a 'histroically somewhat relevant' page or make a seperate page for all B level albums, but in the latter case, I think there's quite a lot of post 2k material that is of equal quality (that is so say: it doesn't compare to 90-94 Norway) that deserves equal respect (or lack thereof, depending on your yardstick).

I could make a list, but I suppose deciding on a preferred format is a better way to start.

[Vesupria]

2) Gorgoroth - Even their early material reeks of being derivative and unimaginative

I scribbled a few notes about 'Anti-Christ' recently. Not in the mood to format them, but you might find them useful.

Whilst the violent intensity of it's predecessor 'Pentagram' has been somewhat reduced (although see Possessed by Satan), 'Anti-Christ' displays more of the narrative melodic ability of the band.  It's also a lot more subtle in what it does, and completely driven by a mood of despair and longing, and a melancholic desire to destory the New World (Christianity) so that the Old World (Paganism) can rise from its fiery ashes. Therefore it sounds like a more sorrowful and reflective version of Pentagram, with the same evil, possessed by the night attitude.

The mini-album format gives it scope for narrative, and here it is presented in five parts (one per song).

(i) The mind getting in the dark mood, the brooding despair of the modern condition, and the Will pushing to break free of its shackles.
(ii) The mind continuing to be drawn to the dark powers of the night, wearing down the shackles of Modernity by mourning the lost past.
(iii) Utterly Possessed by the Night, the dark force escapes, spreading destruction and malice, destroying Christian symbols (the church & the cross) with fiery wrath.
(iv) The chapter of flickering fire, the appeasing of desire, the flames dance with the night, the shadows of the past begin to emerge.
(v) The reflection period, the beginning of a new future.

Whether you take this literally (as a representation of a church burning and the mindset) or a metaphor for a spiritual embodiment of Pagan thinking, this remains a strong work in the Norse Black Metal canon.

I do not make any claims that it is in the top 10 Black Metal albums any more, but it is probably still in the top 20. But really, there's very few other choices I would even consider.