Thinking about death.

[nothingnowhere]

Remember before you were born? No. Does that bother you?

[Transcix]

I don't know what happens after death, so i can't formulate a belief because belief requires some certainty. I'm inclined to think based on information we've gathered empirically with our senses that you decompose, and life goes on around you. However, i cant be so foolish as to think that i KNOW this. i haven't researched fields like parapsychology. the idea that there are multiple dimensions shows that reality is MUCH stranger than we know.
My mind pretty much follows a circle of thought from existence to death so much that i sometimes get depressed to the point of inactivity. then some other days it switches off because i get back to myself and endorphins and all that shit, but any given moment it creeps up on me agagin. It weirds me the fuck out that one day i won't be able to see with these eyes, to feel the wind, to consume water, to hear music... i just won't exist at all. GONE. just a dna vessel that's served its purpose. I have a suspicion that people are really not aware of death, or have become so engrossed in their ego and the biochemical prison of their body that they feel immortalized by their accomplishments.

I definitely agree lots of people won't feel so tough about death when they have to face it at last. In my view it's great that these questions are tormenting you, because keeping it bottled up is a step in the wrong direction.

So for the first step I would say to pursue Truth ruthlessly, wherever it may lead. If reality turns out to be a monstrous creation then you can become the meanest mother fucker and seek to do evil. Lots of people do that. But maybe you'll find a different path. That's not for me to decide, I just want to see people go, go down some path, just not stagnate, because in fact change is the only constant so if you think you're standing still then you're regressing in the worst possible way, you're denying logic itself, learning to live out of your mind in a weak world of disgustingly indulgent make-believe, and as you age you start to forget things and you get senile real fast, very spiritually unhealthy.

As a catalyst for the first step, there's always something for me to point to. The only thing holding you back is an illusion! In reality you're already falling into the vortex, you just don't know it yet. You say: "I don't know what happens after death, so i can't formulate a belief because belief requires some certainty." But come on man, you're KIDDING yourself. How do you know that what you're experiencing isn't just all a dream in your own head? How do you know I'm a real person at the other end of this interwebz who's replying to your thread? And also, how do you know that reality is going to continue, so that there's even a point in making another reply for 'me' to read tomorrow? Certainty is absolutely the key, and the key is to realize you don't have it at all! You fear of death is based on premises which are totally unfounded in the first place, in the sense of existential dilemma, and if you want my advice, only by taking a great big step back and tackling these broader issues can you make true progress in life and, indeed, also with this question of death.

I mean hell I think you realize there's no answer to your question, right? It's pretty fucking straight forward, total non-existence is the most horrible idea imaginable, and the very thought that's it's a possibility when you die makes you furious. So come on, take a step back, and consider that you have NO idea if the default state of things is mortality or immortality. You have NO idea about anything. For all you know you could be living in a hell dimension, or the situation could be really dire and demanding your immediate attention. YOU DON'T KNOW! If you can manage to discard all your safety blankets, all the assumptions society tells you about what's real, then you can confront the real dilemma of existential uncertainty head on. And indeed then when you find the answers they won't be marginally interesting to you like they would be for an armchair philosopher, no, to you they'll be your whole foundation because you have nothing else. You can't get it if you're not ready (willing?) to see it.

So I say take a dive off the deep end into the vortex. And I realize I can't expect you to believe me that you'll be OK, that everything will be OK in the end. All I'm doing here is MAKING you dive, because if you've grasped the logic of my words here, then already you've seen some things you can't turn away from anymore! Or that is, you can turn away from it if you want, but I guarantee it won't be healthy for you... hahaha!

[Conservationist]

Remember before you were born? No. Does that bother you?

No. Yes.

I want to never miss out

[Veritas]

I don't even remember anything before right now.

It's nice to pretend, though.

[diesel]

I don't know what happens after death, so i can't formulate a belief because belief requires some certainty. I'm inclined to think based on information we've gathered empirically with our senses that you decompose, and life goes on around you. However, i cant be so foolish as to think that i KNOW this. i haven't researched fields like parapsychology. the idea that there are multiple dimensions shows that reality is MUCH stranger than we know.
My mind pretty much follows a circle of thought from existence to death so much that i sometimes get depressed to the point of inactivity. then some other days it switches off because i get back to myself and endorphins and all that shit, but any given moment it creeps up on me agagin. It weirds me the fuck out that one day i won't be able to see with these eyes, to feel the wind, to consume water, to hear music... i just won't exist at all. GONE. just a dna vessel that's served its purpose. I have a suspicion that people are really not aware of death, or have become so engrossed in their ego and the biochemical prison of their body that they feel immortalized by their accomplishments.

I definitely agree lots of people won't feel so tough about death when they have to face it at last. In my view it's great that these questions are tormenting you, because keeping it bottled up is a step in the wrong direction.

So for the first step I would say to pursue Truth ruthlessly, wherever it may lead. If reality turns out to be a monstrous creation then you can become the meanest mother fucker and seek to do evil. Lots of people do that. But maybe you'll find a different path. That's not for me to decide, I just want to see people go, go down some path, just not stagnate, because in fact change is the only constant so if you think you're standing still then you're regressing in the worst possible way, you're denying logic itself, learning to live out of your mind in a weak world of disgustingly indulgent make-believe, and as you age you start to forget things and you get senile real fast, very spiritually unhealthy.

As a catalyst for the first step, there's always something for me to point to. The only thing holding you back is an illusion! In reality you're already falling into the vortex, you just don't know it yet. You say: "I don't know what happens after death, so i can't formulate a belief because belief requires some certainty." But come on man, you're KIDDING yourself. How do you know that what you're experiencing isn't just all a dream in your own head? How do you know I'm a real person at the other end of this interwebz who's replying to your thread? And also, how do you know that reality is going to continue, so that there's even a point in making another reply for 'me' to read tomorrow? Certainty is absolutely the key, and the key is to realize you don't have it at all! You fear of death is based on premises which are totally unfounded in the first place, in the sense of existential dilemma, and if you want my advice, only by taking a great big step back and tackling these broader issues can you make true progress in life and, indeed, also with this question of death.

I mean hell I think you realize there's no answer to your question, right? It's pretty fucking straight forward, total non-existence is the most horrible idea imaginable, and the very thought that's it's a possibility when you die makes you furious. So come on, take a step back, and consider that you have NO idea if the default state of things is mortality or immortality. You have NO idea about anything. For all you know you could be living in a hell dimension, or the situation could be really dire and demanding your immediate attention. YOU DON'T KNOW! If you can manage to discard all your safety blankets, all the assumptions society tells you about what's real, then you can confront the real dilemma of existential uncertainty head on. And indeed then when you find the answers they won't be marginally interesting to you like they would be for an armchair philosopher, no, to you they'll be your whole foundation because you have nothing else. You can't get it if you're not ready (willing?) to see it.

So I say take a dive off the deep end into the vortex. And I realize I can't expect you to believe me that you'll be OK, that everything will be OK in the end. All I'm doing here is MAKING you dive, because if you've grasped the logic of my words here, then already you've seen some things you can't turn away from anymore! Or that is, you can turn away from it if you want, but I guarantee it won't be healthy for you... hahaha!

wow man...thanks for that! it will take a while to let all of it sink in. there's a part of me that believes i'll be okay. I've developed an endurance, i've genuinely been able to disregard society looking down on a person like myself ,put a sort of wall up to block out all the sounds. Sure, sometimes that wall shakes or seems unstable because there's that human sensitivity you can never quite silence, but for the most part i manage.. I did this not out of ego-centricity but out of realizing that all of life as we see it is extremely limited, same goes for any animal. Rats see differently, bugs see very differently. Very well someone could look at all of us under a microcope and see us running around, fighting it out for survival, but we can't imagine it like that because we are an organic species and survival is our only goal.

So instead, I look at life like this :

[diesel]

Transcix what you're saying sounds a lot like some matrix talk. shit, diving into the vortex is going to make me even stranger than i am now, as one of the things i realized in the abyss of pondering death is the relativity of all absurdity depending on the accompanying circumstances. It's liberating to know this, but it also makes me feel as though i am one of the only people that know this. the only place where people give it any thought is in art, this is where anything truly human comes alive but it's limited to that domain like a small box inside the bigger box of human concsiousness. It's hard to even express thoughts coherently anymore. My mind takes me from the most terrifying thoughts to complete emptiness like a pendulum on drugs. basically i feel like this guy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cud_k9f6tqk
I've read up on the allegory of the cave and it seems as though i am sort of leaving a life of illusory shadows..and it's painful as hell. only i dont' know if what i'll enter will be another cave of illusions, or a realm of clarity, all i know is that i had to abandon the cave i was in. it may have been comfortable and predictable but that's not truth.. the first two decades of my life were completely worthless, knowing what i know now, but most people would consider the path i'm taking now a completely pointless waste of life

[Veritas]

i say do whatever you fucking want

and i dont mean "have no self control", fuck no, i mean the opposite of that. having self control means that part of you is keeping the other part in check. that means part of you is being held back. that means your a christian lol.

don't control yourself, BE YOURSELF

dumb mother fuckers

[Transcix]

it also makes me feel as though i am one of the only people that know this.

Masters have debated for a long time what's more unbelievable: the logic of the strategy I outlined, or the fact that the logic is recognized by almost nobody at all.

I would point out that the challenging nature of this strategy is a big reason why so many people turn to faith rather than logic for their paradigm's foundation.

If you want to keep pursuing this path of logic one adage I would leave you with is: to truly succeed, you must be willing to risk utter failure, otherwise you won't move much at all.

If you like what I'm saying feel free to check out some of my writing here.

[rapidshare]

Remember before you were born? No. Does that bother you?

If a new consciousness is created at birth, its cessation is a singular event.

Personal immortality in a physical body is impossible, since a physical body exists in time and time is that which ends. When someone says he wants to
live forever, he forgets that forever is a time word. All three-dimensional immortality projects, to say the least, are ill-advised, since they always immerse the aspirant deeper in time.

The tiresome concept of personal immortality is predicated on the illusion of some unchangeable precious essence: greedy old MEEEEEEEE forever. But as
the Buddhists say, there is no MEEEEEEEE, no unchanging ego.

What we thing of as our ego is defensive reaction, just as the symptoms of an illness-fever, swelling, sweating-are the body's reaction to an invading organism. Our beloved ego, arising from the rotten weeds of lust and fear and anger, has no more continuity that a fever sweat. There is no ego; only a shifting process as unreal as the Cities of the Odor Eaters that dissolve in rain. A moment's introspection demonstrates that we are not the same as we were a year ago or a week ago. "What ever possessed me to do that?"

A step toward rational immortality is to break down the concept of a separate personal, and therefore inexorably mortal, ego. This opens many doors. Your spirit could reside in a number of bodies, not as some hideous parasite draining the host, but as a helpful little visitor. "Roger the Lodger . . don't take up much room . . show you a trick or two . . never overstay my welcome."

Take fifty photos of the same person over an hour. Some of them will look so unlike the subject as to be unrecognizable. And some of them will look like some other person. "Why, he looks just like Khrushchev with one gold tooth peeking out."

The illusion of a separate, inviolable identity limits your perceptions and confines you in time. You live in other people and other people live in you-"visiting," we call it-and of course it's ever so much easier with one's Clonies.

When I first heard about cloning I thought, what a fruitful concept: why, one could be in a hundred different places at once and experience everything the other clones did. I am amazed at the outcry against this good thing not only from men of the cloth but also from scientists, the very scientists whose patient researdch has brought cloning within our grasp. The very thought of a clone disturbs these gentlemen. Like cattle on the verge of stampede, they paw the ground mooin apprehensively. "Selfness is an essential fact of life. The thought of human nonselfness is terrifying."

Terrifying to whom? Speak for yourself, you timorous old beastie cowering in your eternal lavatory. Too many scientists seem to be ignorant of the most
rudimentary spiritual concepts. They tend to be suspicious, bristly, paranoid-type people with huge egos they push around like some elephantiasis victim
with his distended testicles in a wheelbarrow, terrified, no doubt, that some skulking ingrate-of-a-clone student will sneak into their very brains and steal their genius work. The unfairness of it brings tears to his eyes as he peers anxiously through his bifocals.

Cloning isn't ego gone berserk. On the contrary, cloning is the end of the ego. For the first time, the spirit of man will be able to separate itself from the
human machine, to see it and use it as a machine. He is no longer identified with one special Me machine. The human organism has become an
artifact he can use like a plane, a boat, or a space capsule.

http://www.interpc.fr/mapage/westernlands/immortality.html

[Cargést]

You should cut out the last part there about the cloning thing, since he commits a number of fallacies, the first of which is to assume that a clone of the body would cause a split in the attentions of the spirit of the "individual".  Cloning a human, in Buddhist thought, would be no different to giving birth to a new human - here we have a new vessel, which considers itself separate from similar vessels ("similar" being really pretty relative, here), while its self-professed individuality is merely a reflection of Consciousness being fundamentally insane (according to "our" reasoning).

The idea that a clone could be the original is obviously false.  If you were told that you were a clone, and were introduced to the original, you'd suddenly think about the world pretty differently, given that whatever memories you may or may not have were not created while within the body in which you currently reside, but were, rather, experienced by that body right there, which looks exactly like you, and thinks more like you than anything else in existence.

The bit at the beginning is what is important to this discussion - there is no self set aside from all other "selves"; atman is Brahman, and Brahman is one.  All this worry about death is meaningless when one considers that there is either nothing there to die, or what is there is constantly dying and being reborn, repeatedly, "eternally".

[Conservationist]

Cloning a human, in Buddhist thought, would be no different to giving birth to a new human - here we have a new vessel, which considers itself separate from similar vessels ("similar" being really pretty relative, here), while its self-professed individuality is merely a reflection of Consciousness being fundamentally insane (according to "our" reasoning).

I thought that part didn't make sense either. What he's talking about is replicating a human being, like in a device used on Star Trek. You sent the adult in, xerox copy the fucker, and then have two of them diverging only at the moment of replication.

Interesting thought experiment. Wonder when/if our technology will get there.

[scourge]

I don't tell people in real life, cause hell, they have finite time too, and why make them depressed?

Discern and discriminate! Encourage those retarded herd animals we are expected to pretend are our equals to preoccupy themselves with dying, hopelessness and suicide. But, treat the promising people instead to topics of continuity, hopefulness and longevity.

[crow]

I've been dead. Or at least, freed from any connection to my body/mind.
No, Transcix, not as in astral travel.
Previewed death as death is: freedom and balance. Timelessness. Eternity. Emotionlessness.
Everything, everywhere, always.
Nice to know what awaits, whenever one arrives.
Also nice to not have arrived yet.

[lost_wanderer]

I've been dead. Or at least, freed from any connection to my body/mind.
No, Transcix, not as in astral travel.
Previewed death as death is: freedom and balance. Timelessness. Eternity. Emotionlessness.
Everything, everywhere, always.
Nice to know what awaits, whenever one arrives.
Also nice to not have arrived yet.

Is it like loosing consciousness after an head injury?

[crow]

It's not 'like' anything at all.
That's why people have such difficulty with it.
Remove every human notion, along with context, and there it is: heaven.