Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Suicide

Suicide
May 14, 2011, 05:05:17 PM
Suicide is a very diverse act that can have a billion motives. From the mighty samurai committing seppuku to preserve their honor, to emos cutting their wrists because they experience life as suffering, to suicide bombers trying to take down as many people with them for ideological reasons. Often sung about by death metal bands, regularly committed by black metal artists. Suicide seems to be an integral part of metal, possibly because it is part of the harsh realities of life that the mainstream either denies or wraps up in candy paper.

What are your thoughts about suicide? And where is the line between self-pity and preserving honor?

Re: Suicide
May 14, 2011, 07:06:04 PM
I'm fine with it, and it's fully understandable. People always whittle it down to a simple issue of self esteem when it's WAY more complex than that.

Re: Suicide
May 14, 2011, 08:56:44 PM
I suppose i'm a bit ambivalent to it. As you pointed out, suicide to preserve one's honor can be seen as a heroic and defiant final act. An act which displays to his enemies, his ultimate refusal to submit to defeat and/or enslavement. German officers as well as the Samurai often chose suicide over surrender. However Kurt Cobain-esque type suicides in my eyes, reflect no honor whatsoever. Pity and self-loathing are good reasons to kill yourself I suppose, hence my ambivalence. Suicide like everything else depends on context and to a lesser degree, circumstance.

Re: Suicide
May 14, 2011, 09:06:02 PM
In some parts of the world suicide after you have done the greatest accomplishment of your life is actually considered honorable. In western societies it's a " problem", a deplorable and illegal(LOL) act. One reason is that we need high population numbers for businesses to work from.

Re: Suicide
May 14, 2011, 09:33:47 PM
In some parts of the world suicide after you have done the greatest accomplishment of your life is actually considered honorable. In western societies it's a " problem", a deplorable and illegal(LOL) act. One reason is that we need high population numbers for businesses to work from.

Good point. Many businesses need dumb people with no self-esteem to work for them, and short-term visionaries with overinflated egos to play the boss.

Re: Suicide
May 15, 2011, 10:46:38 PM
What are your thoughts about suicide? And where is the line between self-pity and preserving honor?

There are many reasons why people commit suicide.

I accept it when people with terminal illnesses do it. I include biological depression in the above.

Otherwise, what's the point? Die in battle, or apply yourself; don't waste the gift that God/life/randomness/Xenu has given you.


Re: Suicide
May 31, 2013, 08:17:20 AM
Once I came across G. K. Chesterton's rant on the matter, it was difficult to see it any other way:

“Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one’s self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say 'poor fellow,' of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane. Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer’s suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man’s crime is different from other crimes – for it makes even crimes impossible.”

Hopeless people do not merit inclusion in the same category as kamikaze pilots. Those are hardly suicides in the same way wrist-cutters and overdosers are. This applies to suicide bombers and school shooters as well, albeit to a lesser degree since their acts show more insanity than effectiveness. The kamikaze pilot is not suicidal, but sacrificial.

Re: Suicide
May 31, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
I agree with Istaros' quote. Killing oneself is generally a sign of being a raging faggot.

NHA

Re: Suicide
June 01, 2013, 04:04:24 AM
Quote
When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront.

Seems to articulate well the root cause of the usual butthurt reactions seen when the topic of suicide is brought up. Inevitably, some risk averse prole, zombieing his way through life, will chime in with "SUICIDE IS FOR COWARDS!".

Suicide can either be practical, vanity, or an irrational impulse depending on the context.


related interesting discussion: http://www.galilean-library.org/site/index.php/topic/270-kirilovs-dilemma/

Re: Suicide
June 01, 2013, 02:33:57 PM
Quote
Suicide can either be practical, vanity, or an irrational impulse depending on the context.

Why do metalheads seek gallantry in giving up and killing yourself? Suicide is for quitters, yo. I guess you could argue a case for the terminally ill, the illogically suicidal, the amazingly heroic etc etc, but these are statistical outliers, most people who kill themselves are well, pussies.

Quote
In the late 1970s, Seiden set out to test the notion of inevitability in jumping suicides. Obtaining a Police Department list of all would-be jumpers who were thwarted from leaping off the Golden Gate between 1937 and 1971 — an astonishing 515 individuals in all — he painstakingly culled death-certificate records to see how many had subsequently “completed.” His report, “Where Are They Now?” remains a landmark in the study of suicide, for what he found was that just 6 percent of those pulled off the bridge went on to kill themselves. Even allowing for suicides that might have been mislabeled as accidents only raised the total to 10 percent.

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print&

Most suicides are spur of the moment decisions, given adequate contemplation most people will reconsider. You can talk all you want about the honour in killing yourself, but I feel you're discussing an entirely unrelated topic. The object then isn't killing oneself but in the reason for it. This does not ennoble suicide by proxy. Calling it a 'cowards way out' is a bit of a cop out because confronting the vast scary beyond doesn't seem cowardly- however thats only examining one side of the coin. Making a rash decision to terminate your existence isn't cowardly, its just stupid--> istaros quote.

Terry Pratchett has alzheimers and has made a documentary about suicide, I would consider him among the heroic few who are killing themselves unwillingly because circumstances force their hand. His attitude is 'heroic' because he isn't shying from his situation, he isn't heroic because he is contemplating killing himself. That is similar to conflating the means and the end. Death is sad, there is nothing to celebrate about it, one can accept it however. 

Death creates nothing.

NHA

Re: Suicide
June 01, 2013, 06:45:08 PM
Bridge jumpers are a pretty interesting phenomenon. In some areas there will be two bridges with equal suicide potential yet people will overwhelmingly gravitate towards one over the other and if a barrier is placed at the preferred location most people wont be bothered to walk the 1mile to the other nearby bridge.

Quote
most people who kill themselves are well, pussies.
Based on what? Life in modern society is hardly challenging. Even if you're completely useless all you need to do is commit some petty crime and get thrown in jail and you wont have to worry about food or shelter.

What does the average person contribute to society? Not much. A large portion of low skilled work could probably be replaced by software at this point. Besides, the largest population demographic for suicide is eldery white men 75+ years old. What are they missing out on? What is society missing out on? Not much.

Re: Suicide
June 01, 2013, 07:30:16 PM
The people who need to kill themselves are rarely the ones who do. The smart ones do too often. I think GKC is onto something in that all forms of escape -- drugs, drink, liberalism (haha), suicide, promiscuity except with sheep -- cause us to stop viewing life as something holy with which we must engage. And soon, disengaging is just too easy...

Fear of living on
Natives getting restless now
Mutiny in the air
Got some death to do
Mirror stares back hard
Kill, it's such a friendly word
Seems the only way
For reaching out again.

Re: Suicide
June 02, 2013, 12:37:13 AM
                           
                                  Sue is fine

Re: Suicide
June 07, 2013, 08:10:29 AM
I've been on and off considering suicide ever since I was 12. First the deterrent was a lack of planning and opportunity, next was fear of dying (but not death itself), after which was fear of Hell, followed by empathy for my loved ones. Now, I'm not really sure what's holding me back; perhaps a mix of the last 3, in smaller quantities. I feel it's only a matter of time now, though I'm at a loss as to how long that is.