punk versus metal

[lost_wanderer]

The major difference between punk and similar type of music versus metal, especially death and black, is
the way they perceive the way human interact or must interact with the universe around them.

Both can be perceive as protest or affirmative music but not for the similar reason.
What is important to the punks is the world of the ego. For exemple, when they want freedom, it's because
they don't like the displeasure of not being free. They want to seek pleasure, both physically and mentally.
They want freedom because it's hard to work and they said that they don't deserve it. But it's more a question
where their ego can't stand not being at the top. They only want to serve themselve. They are like children that
don't want to go to bed because they say it's unfair. It's the reason they habitually are agaisnt religons as well.
They don't want to follow anything bigger than theirselve.


What important in metal is not the selfish ego. It's following the will of the universe. If we are free, it's not because
we want it too, but because we have to. The "gods" put humans free to put them in a context in wich they must struggle
to become stronger, more noble. I will even dare to say that they want us to be gods too.  But it's a hard way and one
must forget about it's tiny self to only hope to acheive it. When Euronymous said that people to be a slave of Satan,
we can interpret it that it's not our personnal goals but a much gradeur purpose that we must serve. I maybe see more
in that sentence than what's being said, but it's closer to the metal philosophy than the "I wanna be free because I deserve
it" mentality.

In metal, you get what you deserve.
In punk or rock, you get what you want, even if that mean the end of the world.
The protest in metal is against the society who don't follow univeral laws.
The protest in punk is against the society who don't allow the people to to wathever they want.


Sure, the reality isn't that simple as that but you get the picture. If we compare groups like The Ramones and Dischage. It's easy
to get which of the too came first and wich of the two is closer to the metal mentality.

[Dinaric Leather]

Metal is full of that egotistical shit too, the best Hardcore Punk transcends that mentality just like the best Metal.

You take note that the best Hardcore Punk has Metal influence, but the inverse is true too, especially with Black Metal. I'm surprised the obvious punk influence in Burzum isn't brought up more often. Bathory's self titled sounds exactly like a Satanic version of GBH's City Baby Attacked by Rats.

[istaros]

From an old post:

- punk is populist
- its goal is to make the individual happy - liberation from the bonds of the corporate whores, politicians, etc
- it dreams of a better life for humans
- it rages against issues in the world
- direct, prosaic lyricism

- metal is tyrannical
- its goal is to reflect reality - it is not anti-individual per se, but the individual is completely irrelevant
- it dreams of a better world, and so, it dreams of better humans, or even no humans at all (cf Ildjarn, whose music could otherwise be seen as "punkish" by some)
- it rages against a world which causes issues to surface
- metaphor and subtext

[Dinaric Leather]

I noticed Punks tend towards alcohol while Hessians are more marijuana people.

Maybe it's because Punks are just THIRSTY AND MISERABLE! HA HA HA!

[Heydrich]

I noticed Punks tend towards alcohol while Hessians are more marijuana people.

Perhaps this is so today - I do not know. But back in Metal's heyday, mid-80's through early to mid-90's, virtually every Hessian I knew drank to excess and perhaps 3/4's of them/us also smoked weed. Beer, booze and Metal were a "hand in hand" affair!

[lord.aspie]

I noticed Punks tend towards alcohol while Hessians are more marijuana people.

Perhaps this is so today - I do not know. But back in Metal's heyday, mid-80's through early to mid-90's, virtually every Hessian I knew drank to excess and perhaps 3/4's of them/us also smoked weed. Beer, booze and Metal were a "hand in hand" affair!

Partly why black/death metal peaked and crashed in such rapid succession, I think.

[aquarius]

I can't listen to much punk, it's just way too 1-dimensional however I recognise the strong influence (via hardcore/thrash) in some of the best metal. Alcohol/THC ties in with the image thing and is pretty irrelevant IMO.

[Agni]

If punk was a magazine, Metal would be a book.

[Conservationist]

What is important to the punks is the world of the ego.

What important in metal is ....the will of the universe.

It seems to me that metal is worship of power and finding beauty in power, not morality.

Punks, being based in the individual, are about escaping power -- or in other words, a transfer of power to self. Punk is anarchy, just like liberalism is anarchy, leading to consumerism, democracy and globalism.

Metal takes a more cosmic and ancient view, which is why metal songs are less about the drama of being a modern person than transcending modernity.

This is also one of the reasons metal could evolve further.

As with all movements, some good people got caught up in punk. Bands like Amebix, Discharge and the Cro-Mags were clearly exceptions. But even they didn't have so far to go with punk before they got bored and tried to become speed metal bands. Each of them did; Discharge became very Slayer-y, Amebix became AC/DC/Motorhead-ish, and the Cro-Mags took a Metallica (second album) direction.

Among other things, this shows us the difference between nihilism and fatalism.

Nihilism is facing an uncertain universe, knowing that we don't know shit, and making the best of it using its logical rules.

Fatalism is facing an uncertain universe, throwing up our hands in a tantrum because it doesn't work exactly as we "feel" it should, and as a result whining about everything and anything so that the ego feels stuffed full of empty crap.

At the end of the day, metal is music aspiring to something. Punk is not. And that is why punks forever hate us.

Signed,

A former punk

[Humanicide]

At the end of the day, metal is music aspiring to something. Punk is not. And that is why punks forever hate us.

I agree with everything else you've written, but I'd like to point out that punk itself does aspire to something (breaking free of the shackles of the system/everyday life). However, it does not offer a solid solution once the aspiration has been reached. Therefore, it's like building a brick wall in front of a windowed office building; sure, you've made the brick wall, but you had no idea what to do with it so you put it wherever, and it can obstruct people in the process.

The few punks around nowadays who accomplish good things are thought of as assholes by the punk community (such as Rev. Paul Bearer).

[Conservationist]

I'd like to point out that punk itself does aspire to something (breaking free of the shackles of the system/everyday life). However, it does not offer a solid solution once the aspiration has been reached. Therefore, it's like building a brick wall in front of a windowed office building; sure, you've made the brick wall, but you had no idea what to do with it so you put it wherever, and it can obstruct people in the process.

Good point, but I think that goal is itself illusory. The system isn't holding us back. It's the stupidity of people, ourselves included, that holds us back. The system is just a giant machine that does whatever we tolerate. The fact that most human beings are proles of the soul who want big TVs, dumb but consistent jobs, a few drinks and dumb sluts, and then they care about nothing else, while throwing their trash on the ground in the woods and driving giant SUVs... that's the problem. Fix that and the system fixes itself. Punk is basically populist Christianity: it believes in external salvation. Metal is more about internal salvation; if we stop being stupid, and do what is logical, our problems get eliminated to background noise.

The few punks around nowadays who accomplish good things are thought of as assholes by the punk community (such as Rev. Paul Bearer).

I basically replied to look this up. If you post a link, people are 666% more likely to check it out (statistic may be inaccurate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheer_Terror

[Dinaric Leather]

Perhaps this is so today - I do not know. But back in Metal's heyday, mid-80's through early to mid-90's, virtually every Hessian I knew drank to excess and perhaps 3/4's of them/us also smoked weed. Beer, booze and Metal were a "hand in hand" affair!

I'm only speaking of my experiences recently, I'm only 21. The way it seems to be in my generation is that virtually every Hessian I know smokes weed at least every other day and 3/4's of us also drink regularly.

I basically replied to look this up. If you post a link, people are 666% more likely to check it out (statistic may be inaccurate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheer_Terror

So I clicked that wikipedia link, read down to the second paragraph in the history section and noticed they refer to Celtic Frost as a Speed Metal band. I was surprised that an encyclopedia thats so inherently populist in nature wouldn't call them "thrash metal". In a brief moment of new found faith in Wikipedia, I clicked the link to the Speed Metal article, and found this nugget of fucked up metal revisionism:

Speed metal eventually evolved into thrash metal. Although many tend to equate the two subgenres, there is a distinct difference between them. In his book Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal, Ian Christe states that "...thrash metal relies more on long, wrenching rhythmic breaks, while speed metal... is a cleaner and more musically intricate subcategory, still loyal to the dueling melodies of classic metal.

Literally all of Wikipedias articles on Heavy Metal and especially articles on any of its sub-genres are highly comical and filled to the brim with shit like this.

[mtlfrm]

If punk was a magazine, Metal would be a book.

I like this. An open book at that. Have you seen Encyclopaedia Metallum?! That just goes to show!

[Humanicide]

Here's a video of Paul Bearer's spoken word. He's no scholar, but he makes some good points and generally seems confident and relate-able as a speaker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L7kYEii2R4

[Forza Romana]

For myself, I started listening to the Kcuf Punk Radio broadcasts back in 1999, and from there I evolved into death metal. But even so back in the day, I never consumed insane amounts of liqueur or weed, though I did not mind them. I actually never drank a beer until a year and a half again! Again, I only decided I was going to drink craft ales and that was like skipping shitty metal bands. I went for the best. There is a cafe in Philly called Monk's Cafe that specializes in Belgium beer of all types and even an occasional craft beer from Italy that is not to be missed. Hey, if I could get troops together we can take Philly apart!!!!