ANUS criticism

[sidereal]

But that could be blasphemy to some who are convinced they are 'nihilistic warriors' doing heaps for 'the cause' by sitting behind an internet blog.

Nobody is like this.  This is the biggest myth about this place: that the users have no lives, live in basements, married to hand, etc. etc.

I don't think you can simultaneously be that person and understand/value the ideals suggested by Metal/this website.

Your right, what i said could itself sound a little too presumptuous. What i simply meant was that the obsession with 'active' nihilism, because it comes across as quite militant, leads to the thought "well how much can these people ACTUALLY be doing simply on an internet blog, which depends upon its notoriety build up on metal not politics.

Maybe this site is missing out on what it could become, which is more of a community hub for nihilists, metal heads, and what ever (non-mainstream, coming from nihilism) politics you espouse... by overusing the 'active' nihilism line. Sure, go out and effect your ideas, but don't let this obsession cloud everything, it's just the internet after all. Not too many thinkers are into a movement which simply tries to motivate henchmen into doing their dirty work. Unless that's all ANUS is after.

But i would like to put a constructive spin on all this criticism. I've followed the site for some time now, on and off. I think it would be fruitful to split the site into three, like i said above. Philosophy (Nihilism), Metal, (Nihilist) Politics (which may be mostly right wing, but won't be assumed, apriori, to be so, thus provoking dogmatic outrage). Oh, and get rid of the reference to assholes: i.e. ANUS! part of nihilism should be a clear perception of HOW SHIT WORKS, including human beings. They have an evolved mental mechanism for avoiding contagion (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/human-ethology/message/17557?o=1&d=-1). Shit included.

[Conservationist]

I don't think you understand active nihilism, sidereal.

It's beyond objective/subjective. It's adaptive. Reality is there, and the options are obvious -- but that's an esoteric (Traditionalist) statement.

If you want to live in a hut and eat feces, go ahead, but not near me. That destroys my ability to live in a sane society and so I'll take your fucking life. No objectivity or morality, just plain old fashioned pagan/animist consequentialism.

I guess evolution is "objective" in some sense, but now that we have "choice," we have to choose to adapt and rise. You can play word games all day; Nietzsche didn't, and he wrote plenty of structured philosophy. He just made it artful. Unlike your statements, however, it wasn't sophomoric sophistry. It had a purpose and something it clearly wanted to express.

The entire right-wing is based on consequentialism, adaptation, Darwinism and learning from the past, but put into a reverent context where it's not a function of the individual. It's a function of an ideal (cultural, aesthetic, scientific, logical). We are the people from BEFORE "The Enlightenment," which is where humanity steered off onto Turd Blvd.

People who bitch about ANUS have plenty of things they could attack it for. Disorganization; philosophy essays in need of updating; whatever crap software they're using. Instead, you're attacking phantoms and wasting everyone's time with your drama.

Do you want to lose an argument by your own hand?

Thank you for this obviously in depth and penetrating psychoanalysis over an internet forum, who ever you are. You have absolutely no credible access to my political views, and so your beliefs on the matter are epistemically unjustified. To assert that someone is 'brainwashed' because they don't agree with you is EXACTLY what i'm on about.

So put away your pretensions of being the big bad scary internet bogey monster who, embracing 'the dark side', sends moderates fleeing back to their cappuccinos. If there is any offense it is on an intellectual level: The idea that you can logically derive political oughts from an 'accurate' perception of 'what is' which only you guys have.

You did exactly what you accused me of.

Here's your argument in a nutshell:

"You believe what you're saying is true, therefore you're intolerant of what I'm saying, which is just as legitimate as what you're saying, therefore you're wrong."

That's 100% liberal orthodoxy. And this:

Maybe this site is missing out on what it could become, which is more of a community hub for nihilists, metal heads, and what ever (non-mainstream, coming from nihilism) politics you espouse... by overusing the 'active' nihilism line.

Yeah, let's have more discussion.

Internet Badass #1: You guys never do anything, go out and see the real world, go DO SOMETHING.

Me: Do what? Blow myself up in a mall? Words are weapons.

Internet Badass #2: Instead of being so anti-social, you guys should invite everyone in, schmooze a bit and you know, become a social club.

Me: To what end? So that people can feel IMPORTANT for participation in doing nothing of importance?

...you act as if this site was born yesterday (to a moron) and has no idea what it's doing. I think you're misreading and selling it very short, and your philosophical "argument" is typing/verbiage but not logic. This from someone whose contribution to -- well, anything -- remains unclear. But one thing's for sure: you're on the ball for sewing division, doubt and other typical liberal behaviors. Are you sure you're not an infected zombie?

Your right, what i said could itself sound a little too presumptuous.

And fucking quit this. You're = you are. Your = ownership. Stop worrying about what sounds presumptuous, and try for accuracy.

[sidereal]

Christ, you reveal yourself as a vicious little attack dog. Liberalism, liberalism, grammar, but at least a brief attempt to engage the issues now.

Trying to remain calm and on topic: I believe I do. You're 'active nihilism' is a particular world view about what is adaptive and how to go about getting it. Nihilism is a more general recognition that you're normative outlook is simply a projection of your evolutionary past, a product of anthropomorphism and not empiricism. We are free to choose what ever normative outlook we like after this realization. Intelligent people who have the brain power to see causes and their effects in the abstract, and thus big-picture stuff, will be more inclined to pick a value set which is *adaptive* because they can 'see into the future' in a matter of speaking compared to the non-abstract thinker.

However this is where it become subjective. Around what is adaptive, less so, but **what ways to go about working towards what is adaptive**. You call for population control, but your methods are crude and bound to fail. Advocating killing everyone under iq 120 will never get beyond this forum... If you don't see this then your simply not aware of how human beings function. Human beings are not some 'blank slate' creatures who can be convinced of absolutely anything, even if it is objectively 'logical'. They have an evolved cognitive platform which varies but which has major universal elements. expecting people to accept your particular cognitive variation (that it is good if we kill everyone will iq under 120) is like expecting people to grow wings. It is biologically and psychologically ignorant. Its just not going to happen. Whereas a more moderate approach might be less effective (end product wise) it will be so much more likely to be enacted, and hence is more adaptive. Do you see where the potential for subjectivity lies now, einstein? It matters not one whit whether my position is motivated by more 'liberal' concerns. It matters if it has greater chance of PRACTICAL SUCCESS.  I can't see how you could disagree with this. If you do disagree, then I can only see that your doing so on political, primarily egotistic, grounds, and that ANUS is a platform for political dogmatism and not rational discussion based on a nihilistic approach to issues.

If this site is just a site for a very specific (and imo quite non-adaptive) particular political platform, then I have the information I was seeking.

[sidereal]

You can play word games all day; Nietzsche didn't, and he wrote plenty of structured philosophy. He just made it artful. Unlike your statements, however, it wasn't sophomoric sophistry. It had a purpose and something it clearly wanted to express.

Your jumping way too far ahead you fool. I didn't imply all N wrote was sophistry and wasn't expressing anything real. What he was trying to state as real was that values are arbitrary - they are relative to your organism. If you are weak, you will have a slave morality, if you are strong, you will what he called an aristocratic morality. Thus he was one of the first philosophers of holism (the parts get their properties from the whole) and was influenced by the holistic spirit of 18th century science which also produced darwin. But he didn't think any one moral set was more 'objective' than the other. he might have liked one more than the other - but he DID NOT GO TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU, LOGICALLY, THAT ONE WAS MORE 'TRUE' THAN THE OTHER. He liked one more than the other, and attempted to persuade you, not logically, but, yes, artistically, via the strength of his prose. If you think his writing style was just there 'to be artsy' then your are blind to how much Nietzsche's writing style is bound up with his 'philosophy'.

[Chains]

I agree with you on (sans the middlefingers to Conservationist)

Trying to remain calm and on topic: I believe I do. You're 'active nihilism' is a particular world view about what is adaptive and how to go about getting it. Nihilism is a more general recognition that you're normative outlook is simply a projection of your evolutionary past, a product of anthropomorphism and not empiricism. We are free to choose what ever normative outlook we like after this realization. Intelligent people who have the brain power to see causes and their effects in the abstract, and thus big-picture stuff, will be more inclined to pick a value set which is *adaptive* because they can 'see into the future' in a matter of speaking compared to the non-abstract thinker.

However this is where it become subjective. Around what is adaptive, less so, but **what ways to go about working towards what is adaptive**.

but after that, I think you are looking too much at the 'impossibility' of the method. Right now, most everything here will be impossible to execute, simply because none of us are in a position of political power with broad support of the population. No, convincing people that your way is logically correct and theirs is not is obviously no small feat. However, saying that it is as impossible as having people grow wings is ridiculous. Look at the mass religious fanatics who are in power in places in the middle-east. Look at how in parts of India and China there is a 2:1 ratio of boys born due to selective abortion. Look at the mass support Hitler received in germany on his way to the top when preaching genocide, or even the support for Stalin and Mao even now. All of this proves that it most certainly is possible to get a population convinced that mass murder is a good thing.
Besides, a far more important question than "how do we get this done?" is "is this desirable?". You should answer that question before complaining that the method sucks.

[AnHero]

This way, you will bring in people who are nihilists or appreciators of the phrasal approach of old school death/black metal but who don't espouse the same politics. You might foster a bigger a quite cool community that way. Imagine the political discussions on the politics site! But yes, you would have to live with a bit of diversity ('but no... look at my furrows of worry.. i feel threatened by  people who are not like me, no no wait wait i mean "diversity is failure"').  And this could be blasphemy to some who are convinced they are 'nihilistic warriors' doing heaps for 'the' cause (as if nihilism naturally led to one plan of action) by sitting behind an internet blog.

Maybe opinions seem uniform because you've spent the majority of your time talking to just a few people - so your observations reveal a small set of opinions.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that, on occasion, someone will come in and claim that the board is hyper-conformist. A few days later, they leave and the regulars get back to disagreeing on just about everything.

I think it's the lack of consensus that prevents anything from being done. You might have to choose between diversity of opinion and action.

[Goluf]

Here's a criticism that's been brewing in my mind for a while, based on observations made over two years in which I ran a site called Forest Poetry, and where I had the privilege of working with several of the more motivated/talented writers from these boards.

ANUS fails because it doesn't grow with the abilities and consciousnesses of the intelligent people inhabiting it. An average, intelligent ANUS user will become fiercely devoted to ANUS for a while, and then abandon it once more challenging, less frustrating, more credible, and more financially viable options for applying himself open up to him.

Here's a likely scenario: an average contributor to ANUS might find the time to write for the site, or one of its offshoots, for a while. Then, he makes a critical advancement in an academic field; his talents are noticed in the mainstream. Offers for graduate programs start rolling in, to prestigious universities that pay all of his expenses no less. He meets a girl, and they want to start a family.

Meanwhile at ANUS, the same things are being discussed by the same age group as 7 years ago, the same writings are there as 4 years ago, the level of writing/discourse in the best cases is on par with his own, but he has to wade through piles of bickering and illogicality to engage with those who want to have real discussions. Add this to the fact that he is separated by vast physical distances from these people, making communication (but more importantly mutual motivation) much more difficult. He lives a secret life in this community, all for no money, a lot of effort, and no visible results.

Do you see the problem? ANUS is cool, but not cooler than a PhD. in physics, a family, and a stable life in a nice city. Additionally, it is extremely mentally taxing to keep up a double life as a dissident and an academic/professional/artisan, and given the choice, all will choose the option that allows them to feed themselves. This is not to say that the two are mutually exclusive, only that focusing energy is a key to success, and anyone put in this bind wants to be successful.

If we want to keep growing, and keep improving, we have to harness the abilities of our intelligent faction. As people age, their interests change, and we have to be prepared to meet these interests by providing intellectual and professional sustenance for this group.

In short, I think it's time this site stop being a safe place for adolescents to blow off steam, and transition to a place where young, gifted professionals can make their first, and often most devastating,  achievements in public life.

I have some ideas for how to help make this happen, but I'd like to hear your reactions first.

[istaros]

Meanwhile at ANUS, the same things are being discussed by the same age group as 7 years ago, the same writings are there as 4 years ago...

My own reaction: your points bring up valid concerns and furthermore are well-made, avoiding the prissy faggot-posturing that's already infested this thread(never takes long, does it?). However, regarding the quoted "problem" in particular, I would say this is a good thing. The site is obviously based around a core set of principles and concepts, and there is a constant influx of new people. These same concepts aren't going to change much because they form the basis of everything here, nor should they change - this allows new users to become acquainted with them and the site as a whole.

Another way of saying the above is to point out that the "same things" will stop being discussed once they stop being relevant.

[Conservationist]

ANUS is cool, but not cooler than a PhD. in physics, a family, and a stable life in a nice city. Additionally, it is extremely mentally taxing to keep up a double life as a dissident and an academic/professional/artisan, and given the choice, all will choose the option that allows them to feed themselves.

You reversed the two sentences.

First, it's hard to keep up a double life.

Second, it's easier just to give up and blame it on ANUS.

Every community will have a need to deal with entry-level people.

[JewishPhysics]

Do you see the problem? ANUS is cool, but not cooler than a PhD. in [mathematics], a family, and a stable life in a nice [suburb or rural town].

I agree that this is a fundamentally true.

In short, I think it's time this site stop being a safe place for adolescents to blow off steam, and transition to a place where young, gifted professionals can make their first, and often most devastating,  achievements in public life.

I have some ideas for how to help make this happen, but I'd like to hear your reactions first.

I'm basically in agreement here, but I can't see where, specifically, you're going with this.  It would be best if you simply elaborated.  At the very least, you'd generate greater interest in the topic.

Meanwhile at ANUS, the same things are being discussed by the same age group as 7 years ago, the same writings are there as 4 years ago...

The site is obviously based around a core set of principles and concepts, and there is a constant influx of new people. These same concepts aren't going to change much because they form the basis of everything here, nor should they change - this allows new users to become acquainted with them and the site as a whole.

Another way of saying the above is to point out that the "same things" will stop being discussed once they stop being relevant.

I'll second what istaros is saying here and simply add that the problem of thematic recurrence is a perpetual inconvenience in almost any area of ideological debate.  Take any given topic of human concern and you'll find out that pretty much all the arguments there are to make have already been made.  It generally just boils down to what you find most convincing.  These arguments end up in a back and forth because there's almost never a definitive, end-all argument.  Life is too complicated for that.

[Eleison]

ANUS fails because it doesn't grow with the abilities and consciousnesses of the intelligent people inhabiting it. An average, intelligent ANUS user will become fiercely devoted to ANUS for a while, and then abandon it once more challenging, less frustrating, more credible, and more financially viable options for applying himself open up to him.

That's basically my experience, I still enjoy the exchange of information made possible by this forum but the site became less important to me as a grew up and realised that any dreams of truly effective activism through ANUS were delusions, not to mention the fact that I no longer sympathise with most of the philosophical ideas advocated here.

[Nimbostratus]

I'm up for moving. ANUS has several remnants from angrier, younger times that encourage, first, anonymity (you don't want to be related to sodomite terminators) and flaking out  (once you got better opportunities IRL than dealing with sodomite terminators). It hurts to say this, but this ANUS is totally infected and decadent. Move on. This place has some great individuals (including both oldest and newest members) that can make good things from the ground, outside from the consensus of the clubhouse.

If we have professionals (or people willing to do research on certain area) I suggest forming expert groups (economics, philosophy, musicology, programming, biology, politics, etc.) that are willing to discuss things in a professional commitment that will be helpful IRL for their own purposes. It's better than having a bunch of avatars discussing about everything and nothing, which is less stimulating than discussing with some IRL peers that are being educated or are educated in your field.

[we hope you die]

I still think the metal sections of ANUS have a lot to offer. I stopped following anus.com when I got to university level philosophy and found myself able to apply my own take on things. However, the metal part of ANUS continues to be a great resource for music, comment and food for thought, and there is no other site on the internet that is like it. Lets not forget also that the name ANUS carrires a lot of stigma around with it, whether it be good or bad people will still react to the music side of this website alone, politics aside. On metal-archives the very mention of ANUS may get you blocked from the forum.

In essence ANUS already is two sites, the DLA linked with deathmetal.org, and anus.com itself which people are paying less attention to, or at least I am and am assuming that a lot of people eventually do the same.

Ths forum also continues to be the best of its kind on the internet. No where else can you find discussions of the real meaning of this music beyond mere aesthetics and in a very troll hostile environment. It does have all the problems that all internet forums have, be it parrotting the more experienced members' views, poor argumentation, attempted trolling etc etc, but the level of discussion on the whole remains well above average for a metal forum.

I see no need to change the music side of the website, although some posts on the DLA have been or poorer quality recently. One could move all discussions of politics and philosophy to a seperate section or even a seperate forum, but I would sure as hell stay away from that.   

[indjaseemun]

I'll give my opinion as a person who knows this site for some years, but I never had the maturity necessary to understand it for most of the years.

I translated some ANUS writings to a brazilian version of ANUS, but most of the content on that site are translations o texts not from ANUS, but that I believe are relevant to the philosophy expressed on the website and are good to influence the people in a similar direction.
The essays were the main thing when I started reading the site and I haven't read most of it, and the parts that involve white racial things, western values etc. are not relevant to me.

But the things that are relevant in a global way, like the nihilism, the honesty, romanticism, etc... This is what made me like the site, and I think preserving knowledge, values, etc. is important to humanity now.  But I was a teen back then and now I'm more realistic: I never would support any ideology as anti-humanist as ANUS, that is, advocate the killing of low IQ people arbitrarily (is this really serious?), advocating killing in general, acceptance towards mass murderers, even of schoolteens. I support in my country a movement that has christian values even though I am not one myself. I will never fool myself into thinking I am capable of holding those opinions and live by it. Not to mention I am totally unfit to become what this website promotes. I believe there is a state of mind in which you don't care about suffering of others, only goals, and I believe this is destructive.

I will continue to update the website with both ANUS and non-anus content, spread it on social networks and forums, and try to influence people. But one day I will have to make a written statement and put it on the site saying it's over, and leaving only the content, for the reasons I explained above. The nihilism, the honesty, the "facing reality", not live in a fantasy world I will try to uphold. And that's exactly why I'm realizing that, politically, ANUS is not for me. It is for me as a philosophy and nihilism site.

[Cargést]

Truth

This is essentially the same as my take on things.  The American Nihilist Underground Society has become less important to me as the groundwork it provided me has been built upon by my own experiences and thoughts.  The DLA remains phenomenally important, however.  I no longer identify with the Philosopher, removing himself from society so as to observe it; more and more, I gravitate towards removing myself from this society, so as to develop and promote a better way of living.  Culturally, I am a Hessian: the main websites promoting Hessian interests are hessian.org, deathmetal.org, and anus.com/metal; thus, it is evident that my focus lies on the Metal-oriented aspects of ANUS, rather than the political or philosophical ones.