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December 10, 2011, 03:02:29 AM
I think it is perfectly disingenuous to deny the Pagan roots of Christianity, and the sooner we instruct Christians in this regard, the sooner they will lose their fascination with the exoteric, which is responsible for the fundamentally liberal values of modern Christianity. Ancient Christianity had no such problem because it was (a) closer to its Pagan roots and (b) not yet democratized, at which point the proles infested it with Crowdism much as they have infested Wicca and Satanism with Crowdism.

Christianity is composed of mostly Greek influences, both from the Greek and through Judaism, which is in many ways a derivative of Greek thought, albeit in a materialistic vein, like Aristoteliaism adapted for desert living. In addition, there are clear Hindu influences in Christianity, as well as European (including Scandinavian, possibly through the influences of the Etruscan people who used a rune-like writing) Pagan origin, and the scattered religious doctrines of tribes from Egypt, Babylon, Persia, etc.

Would anyone be interested in an "Occupy Christianity" movement?

The idea is simple: bring back the Pagan idea of a divine order in which evil and good are in balance, and not all that appears evil is evil, for example the death by natural selection of the unwise.

Phoenix

Re: ✠
December 10, 2011, 05:06:52 AM
For a nihilist, you are quite the Christian sympathizer. Why don't we discard the label of "Christianity", surely it has been perverted beyond help, if you can find truth in it then call it by a different name. I don't want to lose my lunch.

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December 10, 2011, 03:03:03 PM
I am sure up for this cause as I myself have journeyed the path of Paganism. It has been natural for me to do so.

You can try and have respect for Christianity but you soon lose that battle. And then you know why you fight so hard against it. Christians are stubborn and deny anyone else their freedom of religion or choice of spiritual path. You ARE wrong if you choose another path! Now THAT makes me lose my lunch! (which I just ate but the way!)

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December 10, 2011, 03:22:43 PM
For a nihilist, you are quite the Christian sympathizer.

Sympathizer?

I just advocated reclaiming the religion for its pagan basis and using it to discard Crowdist morality.

I'm advocating sympathy, but only with a takeover.

Even more, I'm advocating practicality. Culture trumps religion. We all believe basically the same stuff because it's in our blood, so all that is required is disciplining the religion that is now in fashion to include our Pagan (and Hindu) heritage.

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December 10, 2011, 07:15:30 PM
Culture doesn't trump religion. Religion is a part of culture. A change in cultural identity can occur with change in religion. It happened to my ancestors, and I am grateful. That is my tradition now.

Culture trumps weak religions.

Hey posting like this is pretty awesome! Cosmic realization!

Edit: Are you sure about the Hindu origin? I mean even if it is genetically true it's completely out of the consciousness of your peoples. Lost in the reaches of the past. How could it be introduced or made palatable? The Pagan ones actually persist in terms of values and symbols. Lots of people know and care about Vikings, few about Brahmins. Is there a real world example to look to here?

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December 10, 2011, 08:52:01 PM
I would argue that the veneration of saints stems from a natural instinct toward pagan ancestor worship. Thoughts?

Ancient Christianity is great. Check out 'Spirit and Fire', an anthology of the writings of Origen. Neo-platonism with the Ten Commandments tossed in, and a Christ symbol representing the union between man and god? Sign me up. Christianity in antiquity provided Europe with a strong moral backbone and a divine calling to succeed. The fact of the matter is, religion is important and will always be important. Any attempt to subvert modern Christianity and bring about a 'return to form' of sorts is a smart move, because people need God and will seek it out in a number of ways. Christianity is the dominant choice among us white folk due to a strong cultural connection to it's traditions, but unfortunately that has manifested itself in the worship of a hippie egalitarian Jesus, who's concept of 'loving everyone' is pandering to the short term immediately obvious benefits instead of looking at the bigger picture. You are never going to replace Christianity with paganism in a white majority country. It is always going to be a dominant force. Why not attempt to improve it? Let's turn foreign aid missionary faggots into crusaders with a divine calling to sacrifice themselves for the sake of their people.

Black metal raged against Christianity because Christianity had turned into something sick, a representation of equality by gunpoint and materialistic consumerist culture. What's better, a return to a healthier form of the religion, or a useless attempt to burn down it's churches, both physically and metaphorically?

Re: ✠
December 11, 2011, 01:27:35 PM
I would argue that the veneration of saints stems from a natural instinct toward pagan ancestor worship. Thoughts?
Or both are just indicative of general cultic behaviour?

...that has manifested itself in the worship of a hippie egalitarian Jesus, who's concept of 'loving everyone' is pandering to the short term immediately obvious benefits instead of looking at the bigger picture.
Strange statement. Christianity is about the worship of Christ. The message of Christ, as transmited to us through the apostles, is one of egalitarianism, and praise for the weak and poor. It's not a modern corruption, that has always been the core message of Christianity.

You are never going to replace Christianity with paganism in a white majority country. It is always going to be a dominant force.
I disagree. One may not be able to actively replace it, but then actively dis/replacing a religion is a very difficult, perhaps one of the most difficult tasks imaginable, and in general, the path to religious change isn't that one dimensional. Instead, it seems quite possible that Christianity could lose its cultural and spiritual credibility due to the popularity of other ideas and its inability to relate to contemporary needs and circumstances.

Black metal raged against Christianity because Christianity had turned into something sick
I don't think I've ever read an interview with a black metal band which expresses this view. This is clearly your own view, presented as a truism with no evidence at all.
"creation in order to subdue the torment of perception" - Wilhelm Worringer
A View From Nihil
Order of the HNW

Re: ✠
December 11, 2011, 01:41:51 PM
Conservationist, I disagree with your point of view. The core philosophical messages of Christianity are, and always have been, egalitarianism and the profanity of our existence. If Christianity in Europe in the Late Antique and/or Middle Ages had some attractive features reminiscent of paganism, it is only indicative of a period of transition, when the practices and aesthetics of pre-Christian Europe had yet to be fully brought into line with the core weltanschauung of Xianity. We are now seeing, in our time, the full flowering of the core Xian doctrine. Egalitarianism = democracy, nomocracy, mass imigration, racial/cultural miscegenation; profanity of existence = ecocide, mass social anomie, atheism, excessive materialism.
"creation in order to subdue the torment of perception" - Wilhelm Worringer
A View From Nihil
Order of the HNW

Re: ✠
December 11, 2011, 03:14:33 PM
The doctrines of original sin combined with universal salvation are not compatible with this idea. What values or beliefs would be brought out to lessen the impact of these?

Re: ✠
December 11, 2011, 08:53:19 PM
AVFN and fallot: you make good points. However, Christianity is a protean doctrine. The Catholic church is one of the most anti-egalitarian organizations on earth, or at least was; further, some parts of the Bible clearly contra-indicate any egalitarian view (the parable of the five talents comes to mind). Finally, look around you: the conservatives, especially those who mention nationalism, tradition or a fighting spirit, are disproportionately Christian. We need alliance with these people.

This is a two-way exchange: we accept their belief in exchange for a change in spin/emphasis on the underlying ideas of it. We in the process convert it from an exoteric belief system to an esoteric one with a surface message of solidarity between culture, religion and heritage. That is the essence of tradition. In short, we're looking to bring forth the Pagan elements in Christianity -- and no one doubts the religion was borrowed from that tradition, do we? -- and use them to obscure the confused modern elements.

I suggest targeting some of the right-wing Christian blogs:

http://www.confederatecolonel.com/
http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/node
http://mangans.blogspot.com/
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/
http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/
http://bonald.wordpress.com/

Infuse these with the ideas of good Pagans on morality (support strong, exile the weak) and esotericism (a hierarchy by ability) and use these doctrines to contradict mis-interpreted Christian ideas like original sin (without improving oneself, humans are prone to stupidity), etc:

http://www.gornahoor.net/
http://www.primordialtraditions.com/
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

And of course anything good you've read here.

Re: ✠
December 11, 2011, 09:44:31 PM

The idea is simple: bring back the Pagan idea of a divine order in which evil and good are in balance, and not all that appears evil is evil, for example the death by natural selection of the unwise.

A word on idioms: From the traditional Christian point of view, it is the pagan, precisely, that is the fatalist--in failing to distinguish between virtue and vice, for example--and egalitarian--in denying the hierarchies intrinsic to all existence. And again, from this same perspective, goodness and intelligence are likewise divine, whereas stupidity is synonymous with sin. To understand Christianity, one must first of all come to term with such idioms.

Regard "occupying" Christianity, the Freemasons subverted the last of traditional Western Christianity following the Second World War in a Europe weakened by the final triumph of liberalism.

Quote from: AVFN

The core philosophical messages of Christianity are, and always have been, egalitarianism and the profanity of our existence. . . . We are now seeing, in our time, the full flowering of the core Xian doctrine. Egalitarianism = democracy, nomocracy, mass imigration, racial/cultural miscegenation; profanity of existence = ecocide, mass social anomie, atheism, excessive materialism.

The natural order is implicitly divine (and, unlike the moderns would have it, an agency of intelligence and an arbiter of wisdom), anthropomorphically symbolized in the ever virgin Mother of God. Denouncements of "worldliness," so often misrepresented (occasionally deliberately by liberals) are with reference to the artifice of human cunning, often in the face of (again) natural law. Let's not forget that the French Revolution culminated with the worship of the goddess "Reason" in a desecrated Cathedral of Notre Dame in 1793, led by the very forces championing industrialization.

Ultimately, one can't have it both ways: either traditional Christianity was a legitimate religious tradition and a vehicle of truth that resulted in a glorious empire lasting a thousand years but cut short by the humanism of the so-called Renaissance, or the very confluence of the German and Latin geniuses that became Christendom ("Europe") is itself illegitimate.

A final word: the point of departure for all religious traditions involves the notion of an objective and infallible Revelation, the macrocosmic analogue of the (divine) intelligence residing within the subject of the human microcosm. Rejection of the notion of Revelation will seem to any traditional interlocutor--whether Muslim or Hindu, it doesn't matter--as a denial of intelligence itself. One does not approach a king from behind; the same holds with respect to the sacred.
"Art remains in the artist and is the knowledge by which things are made. What is made according to the art is correct; what one makes as one likes may very well be awkward. We must not confuse taste with judgment, or loveliness with beauty, for as Augustine says, some people like deformities." -- A.K. Coomaraswamy

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December 12, 2011, 12:28:19 AM
Lets scrap it totally and be done with it. Convert Christian churches to pagan temples and Bring back Scandinavian/Germanic gods.


In short: Throw out Christ, bring back Thor.


The old gods need to be recognized once more. Not this modified version of Christianity we're talking about with papa Jebus. No matter what you do to it, Christianity will always be a weak, egalitarian religion from the middle east. Period. I mean, I get what is going on here. Some of you think that Christianity cannot be beaten, so therefor lets just not try but instead revise it. This, in my mind, is surrendering.




"Infuse these with the ideas of good Pagans on morality (support strong, exile the weak) and esotericism (a hierarchy by ability) and use these doctrines to contradict mis-interpreted Christian ideas like original sin (without improving oneself, humans are prone to stupidity), etc:"


All of that is going to be pretty hard to do considering Jesus loves weak people and favor's the meek and retarded. Yes, there is a hierarchy, but it is totally on its head. The meek and the sick are on top. Not the strong and the powerful.


Christianity is DEAD in the West no matter how you look at it. Even in America where large portions of the population say that they believe in god are "vanilla" Christians. They hardly understand Christianity and wear religious jewelry. Maybe show up at midnight mass on Christmas. Thats about it. It is nothing but a rotting husk. I say we support the GROWING interest there seems to be in revivalist Germanic/Scandinavian paganism. Lets embrace this resurgence and help it come to pass.







Re: ✠
December 12, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
Christianity is DEAD in the West no matter how you look at it. Even in America where large portions of the population say that they believe in god are "vanilla" Christians. They hardly understand Christianity and wear religious jewelry. Maybe show up at midnight mass on Christmas. Thats about it. It is nothing but a rotting husk.

It certainly is dying out and only maintaining itself in the Bible Belt and Deep South in the U.S. Nominal Christianity in this century is destined to be a majority sub-Saharan African religion.

I say we support the GROWING interest there seems to be in revivalist Germanic/Scandinavian paganism. Lets embrace this resurgence and help it come to pass.

The old religion is going to run into the same challenges faced by the new religion. They do not adapt well to the contemporary world, especially when secular humanism trounces each in political and social reward. Notice contemporary Christians scrambling for their own humanist credentials by way of worldly humanist works. This only discredits them further as the uneducated country bumpkins of social justice when educated liberals are involved in the same acts.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: ✠
December 12, 2011, 03:22:54 AM


I say we support the GROWING interest there seems to be in revivalist Germanic/Scandinavian paganism. Lets embrace this resurgence and help it come to pass.

The old religion is going to run into the same challenges faced by the new religion. They do not adapt well to the contemporary world, especially when secular humanism trounces each in political and social reward. Notice contemporary Christians scrambling for their own humanist credentials by way of worldly humanist works. This only discredits them further as the uneducated country bumpkins of social justice when educated liberals are involved in the same acts.
[/quote]


That is why we need to not only change religious practice, but also how we go about other things in our culture.

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December 12, 2011, 05:08:36 AM
Our unidirectional, cross cultural, promiscuous altruism is a key property of the new culture of the West, something that was absent with the old. The old culture vanished much more recently than the old pagan religions.

The cultural shift all happened around the French Revolution, American Manifest Destiny and finally, the slave emancipation decades of late 18th to mid 19th centuries. Christianity overall eventually began to toe the new cultural line so to speak.

The time of brutal conquests on religious grounds (Conquistadors e.g.) had given way to principled rationalist massacres for equality and human fraternity as seen with the American Civil War, the two-and-a-half world wars, and European reverse colonization.

Occupying Christianity can work by rooting out the secular humanism in gospel interpretations as heresy; human fraternity is strictly spiritual, never biological and only by God's judgement, never by man's.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793