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The Pagan ideal

The Pagan ideal
December 12, 2011, 05:29:59 PM
Most modern people completely misunderstand paganism.

To them, it is a conveniently political device -- atheistic, nationalistic, and individualistic. Of course, like Wicca and Satanism, this is a modern re-interpretation of the past, which means that it's a surface facade of the past glazed onto the standard modern dogma: me first -> equality -> we need a strong morality to enforce equality -> absolute humanistic "truths."

On the other hand, ancient paganism was -- from surviving literary documents -- a thoroughly animistic, pantheistic, supernatural and metaphysical idea based on the concept of an absolute order that pervaded all life, much as astrology or tarot readings rely on the numerology and placement of events to divine their significance.

Its primary difference from Christianity: it was monistic, and not dualistic, and thus was not prone to the idea of a perfect morality interpreted by a mercantile, personal god.

Of course, many Christians resurrected the pagan notion. Eckhart, Blake, Emerson and others kept closer to that idea. Still others advocated "positive Christianity" as a replacement for the mass-friendly idea of it.

If we want a Pagan state, or even a Pagan religion of some form, we must know what Paganism is.

I will wager that few if any do.


Re: The Pagan ideal
December 12, 2011, 07:59:51 PM
I would go as far as to say that none of us know what paganism was. First there is the problem of evidence. Most of our written sources for pre-Xian belief survive in manuscripts redacted during the Xian period and hence must be questioned (to different degrees, obviously) on their reliability and accuracy, etc. This is a problem which, as an early medieval hisorian, I face daily. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, a belief system is intrinsically tied to the historical circumstances in which it exists. So, not only would it be impossible to correctly interpret sources for paganism without a complete awareness of their historical context, but furthermore they would be practically useless outside of said context. This is why, as I said on the Xian thread, the spiritualites of the future cannot be the same as those of the past. Hence, I feel we must allow ourselves a certain amount of reinterpretation and development. But you're right, there's a lot of fannying about out there by Wiccans and the like.

Here's a nice quote from Alain de Benoist on the matter:

Quote
A new paganism must be truly new. To surpass Xianity demands both the reactualisation of its 'before' and the appropriation of its 'after'... The 'return to before' is unworkable ... neopaganism must take into account history, whose notion has been conceptualised by Judeo-Christian monotheism, not to assign it now a sole, unique end, but to make it the ever plural result of a will that is ceaselessly reorientated in new directions. For the same reason, neo-paganism must also re-present the pagan system of values in a form that is not simply the antithesis of Judeo-Christian monotheism... The paganism of the future will be a Faustian paganism.
"creation in order to subdue the torment of perception" - Wilhelm Worringer
A View From Nihil
Order of the HNW

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 12, 2011, 08:58:49 PM
We take what we can gather from folklore, regional practice, manuscripts and oral tradition and rebuild from there. Every single religion has its own various man-made elements to it. No shame in it.






Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 02:57:45 AM
No one is going to mention the Odyssey, Iliad, Eddas, Kalevala, Aeneid and Mahabarata?

Those are some favorite works of mine. I recommend them to anyone who wants to develop a good undrestanding of the importance of rigidly adhering to virtue regardless of the difficulty of doing so. Of course, such works are fertile grounds for many other profound insights.

Quote
'Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.' - Philippians 4:8
Classicism in art, royalism in politics, Catholicism in religion

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 03:05:16 AM

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 03:06:55 AM
The editors/moderators here are certainly adament about their opposition to macintosh products. It's pretty humorous, I admit.
Classicism in art, royalism in politics, Catholicism in religion

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 04:14:14 AM
Macs are like the Protestants of personal computing.

  • image over substance
  • high maintenance
  • egalitarian
  • redundant
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 04:16:24 AM
I definitely agree with you, I was just saying that I found the trolling really funny.
Classicism in art, royalism in politics, Catholicism in religion

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 06:05:30 AM
Macs are like the Protestants of personal computing.

  • image over substance
  • high maintenance
  • egalitarian
  • redundant

Agreed on all accounts.


May the ANUS gods forgive me and make my trials in the underworld harsh and violent. 

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 07:16:18 AM
Macs are like the Protestants of personal computing.

  • image over substance
  • high maintenance
  • egalitarian
  • redundant

Yup. Their aesthetic design is somewhat appealing, and some software available is intriguing, but really they're ultimately a box that you can't modify, can't repair yourself, and can't personalize. Ironic since their whole mantra is "think different". Overpriced shiny boxes.

Also, you're telling me that listening to Korpiklaani and owning a loincloth DOESN'T make me a Pagan?
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 07:01:58 PM
A GUI can also go too far. When it starts trying to wipe my ass for me, there's no way it will work when a more complex problem (corn) presents itself.

I think of Macs as like metalcore. They're slicker on the surface, but inside, are a confused mess of contradictory goals.

Von List, you took that really well.

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 13, 2011, 11:06:03 PM
Hey, it was lazy checking of my sources. My fault. I laughed myself.


Back to the topic at hand:

I think it is impossible absolutely KNOW what paganism truly is. Perhaps it was truly known to those who we could name amongst our ancestors who braved the environments in the North. I think its true meaning may have past with time due to the dramatic political/social/economic shifts that have occurred over the thousands of years since then. So I will admit that any attempt at discovering True Paganism will be obscured by the very nature of modernity. Even we who claim to be against certain aspects of modernity are still influenced by it, and therefore may make mistakes when it comes to teasing apart the issue of what True Paganism is.


That is why the best approach is to take what we have, and construct a new faith based upon the evidence that we know of. One of heroism, honor, land and heritage.

Re: The Pagan ideal
December 14, 2011, 12:43:24 AM
That is why the best approach is to take what we have, and construct a new faith based upon the evidence that we know of. One of heroism, honor, land and heritage.

One thought is that constructing a new faith gives power to those who really have no clue, and will quickly become New Age. It is the biggest problem and the central notion behind "Against the Neo-Pagans."

What Paganism is as you describe is blood and soil, heritage, honor, heroism and culture, but also the transcendental monistic lineage that comes to use through Greco-Roman paganism, the Eddas and Hinduism.

The problem is that trying to resurrect it without a strong central force will allow the Crowd to turn it into what they always turn everything into, which is liberalism.

Hence the appeal of taking what we have, and modifying it backward, as both Schopenhauer and Hitler suggest.

It's a trade: we accept the newer religion in exchange for it making our values the center of its plan. Both sides give up a little, but then we get to use the already existing network that is mostly conservative.