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Values as self-pleasing human creation?

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 27, 2006, 11:47:49 AM
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the thing is, varg's value system interacts with Reality in a healthy way, where as the christian one interacts with Reality in a bad way. it doesn't matter what values you uphold, if it interacts with Reality in a good way, then it is favorable. take this for example; you can be a national socialist or you can be an eco-fascist, which are two seperate paths, but interact with Reality in a way that is good. comprende?


Problem there is you haven't proved how a National Socialist or an Eco-fascist is more in line with reality. I can easily assume Christianity as not being close to reality (as do most here) so arguing about that is pointless. As to the NS and Eco-Fascist, yes, I am aware there are Anus articles that deal with these matters and I've read some, but often times the demands of my more immediate studies call my attention rather then ANUS' "academic" achievements.

The Eco-Fascist aspect I can certainly point a few flaws in right now. For example there are numerous groups of this ideology that have released animals from testing sites/animal-farming facilities. Problem with that was the animals released were not native to the environment there and caused havoc to the eco-system/food chain. Another example is the group that torched a lot full of cars. Problem is the scorched vehicles actually released more harmful gases into the air then they ever would of by emissions from driving.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 27, 2006, 04:55:32 PM
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Problem is the scorched vehicles actually released more harmful gases into the air then they ever would of by emissions from driving.


Acts often matter more in symbol than by literalist value judgment: consider your above example, or church burning.  Just a thought.

aimanirrajim

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 27, 2006, 08:10:33 PM
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The Eco-Fascist aspect I can certainly point a few flaws in right now. For example there are numerous groups of this ideology that have released animals from testing sites/animal-farming facilities. Problem with that was the animals released were not native to the environment there and caused havoc to the eco-system/food chain. Another example is the group that torched a lot full of cars. Problem is the scorched vehicles actually released more harmful gases into the air then they ever would of by emissions from driving.
this is just a matter of the wrong people trying to do something they think is right. they have the tool (eco-terrorism) but they don't know how to use it (effectively). if Ted Kaczynski is still out there, he would go for a different aproach.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 07, 2006, 04:55:30 AM
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So my question is simple: Are values created by humans to please themselves?


Everything in life only has as much value as you attach to it. This goes for virginity, for pride, for your cd-collection, for everything.

To me; knowing that is the essence of nihilism.

What really matters in life: food, shelter, clothes - all in their most basic and primal way. Everything more is a luxury, including moral values.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 07, 2006, 01:53:38 PM
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Everything in life only has as much value as you attach to it. This goes for virginity, for pride, for your cd-collection, for everything.



Everything in reality/life has a value defined by its opposite.
For example, if your country is overrun by Mexicans or Muslims, suddenly your European ancestry seems a little more important and dignified.

Annihilaytorr

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 07, 2006, 03:00:47 PM
If boiling things down to the primal level, reproduction ultimately trumps food, shelter and clothes as what really matters. As animals our prime directive is to pass our own genetic material along.

Moral values, or perhaps what could be better described as proper social standards, become absolute necessity in complex society where the availability of food, shelter, clothes and also safety is affected by the reactions of other individuals. Imagine raising a family if child molesting wasn't immoral and, by extension, illegal.

It's a shame and a failure of evolution that our values can be so easily inverted to be wholly socially destructive in such a manor explicitly opposite the original intent and purpose of our morals or values. Where maternal/paternal instincts and the instinct to protect a member of your tribe in distress so they can in turn protect you becomes protecting inherently weak and frail members of any tribe, thereby weakening the entire tribe and society at large and further diluting your genetic material with inferior stock, speaking in general and digestible terms, where this failure lies.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 07, 2006, 05:10:43 PM
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Problem there is you haven't proved how a National Socialist or an Eco-fascist is more in line with reality...yes, I am aware there are Anus articles that deal with these matters and I've read some, but often times the demands of my more immediate studies call my attention rather then ANUS' "academic" achievements.


If you're too lazy to read the source materials, don't ask the question. You've got the time. Stop being a whiner.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 08, 2006, 04:16:17 AM
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Moral values, or perhaps what could be better described as proper social standards, become absolute necessity in complex society where the availability of food, shelter, clothes and also safety is affected by the reactions of other individuals. Imagine raising a family if child molesting wasn't immoral and, by extension, illegal.


What about the ancient Egyptians? They had very little taboos when it came to sex. I could give a list of examples but you can look those up yourself too. My point is that 2000 years of christianity have led us to accept the ideas you expressed as normal and natural, while before that people lived in a different way which we can now not even understand anymore. Yet those people were probably more happy with their sexuality than any product of this age. The ancient Egyptians didn't even have a word for 'virgin' to them that phenomenon was probably considered unnatural.

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If boiling things down to the primal level, reproduction ultimately trumps food, shelter and clothes as what really matters. As animals our prime directive is to pass our own genetic material along.


What I meant is that food, shelter and clothes are the three basic things we need in life. Everything else is luxury and a "blessing" I wasn't suggesting we return to the stone age, just trying to point out how much we take for granted, including our moral values. Just like a soldier that is sent to war: at first he might think about why he's there and what he can do to make a difference. But when the bullets start flying he's likely to only think about survival and the rest won't matter anymore. After that his real morals will surface, but they will likely be incomprehensible to outsiders.

Annihilaytorr

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 09, 2006, 07:45:33 AM
I understand that the Egyptians had a different ethos toward sex, but I have yet to read that child molestation was widely accepted in Egypt, and that was all I had spoken to. You misconstrued the purpose of that example. The purpose of that post was not to defend the existence morality, or our current Christian derived set of morals, but to point out its origin in evolution. While adultery appears in the myths of Ancient Egypt, it was still punishable by death, much like it was in earlier Christian times. The immorality of adultery, especially adultery committed by women, derives from the instinct to pass on your own genetic material, and this is consistent in most cultures.

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.html

I have no clue where you pulled that "no word for virgin" thing out of. Ancient Egypt worshipped a representation of Isis as Isis the Virgin, and had a goddess that dealt with specifically with the loss of virginity.

"Tabitjet was a scorpion goddess, relating to the bleeding caused by the loss of virginity."

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/animalgods.htm
http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/tabitjet.htm

Put that same soldier’s son on the battle field and tell me then what his “true morals” are. I think they would be something any parent or sane person would recognize.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 09, 2006, 09:49:23 AM
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I have no clue where you pulled that "no word for virgin" thing out of.


My ass obviously. The h0ly m0ther mary myth is likely derived from the story of Isis birthing all living things, including the sun, while remaining a virgin. I knew that and I should have realized that. I did see a documentary on either National Geographic or Discovery Channel on the Egyptian sex thing, but that was some time ago. On second thoughts I think it was more like they had a different definition for virgin, that's what the documentary said anyway (but sure: don't trust TV)

Anyway, I'm not trying to defend child-molestation but if you look in history and even at other cultures today you'll see they have different ways of dealing with that. (and on a personal note I think child-molestation - 12 years and younger - should be punished by death, especially for repeating offenders) But as to how christianity deals with this would be a whole different topic. Regardless of my error I think you understood my point of pre-christian dogmas. And I was hoping that my post would generate some more interest and debate around pre-christian beliefs (I know there are some people on this board that know a hell of a lot more about that subject than I do)

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Put that same soldier’s son on the battle field and tell me then what his “true morals” are. I think they would be something any parent or sane person would recognize.


This link shows what happens when training makes way for primal fear. Listen to the guys yelling. The runaways they shoot appear to be unarmed. I'm sure their parents will understand.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 11, 2006, 05:35:13 AM
Of course values are a human creation. Who else would create them, God? But they're also based on responses to reality. I value quality music because listening to shitty music makes life worse. Did I create that value? Yeah, it didn't "exist" before. But does it "exist" now? Values are wherever people think (which is rare but does happen sometimes).

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 11, 2006, 01:46:11 PM
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Of course values are a human creation. Who else would create them, God? But they're also based on responses to reality. I value quality music because listening to shitty music makes life worse. Did I create that value? Yeah, it didn't "exist" before. But does it "exist" now? Values are wherever people think (which is rare but does happen sometimes).



I think that you will find that the great classical composers and the good black metal bands music are similar to nature. That they both rely on structure which follows natures patterns. Good music appeals to us because it is part of us, part of our natural makeup. When done exceptionally well, it is not just a reflection of nature but also trancends this and adds to it by looking back.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
November 12, 2006, 04:26:23 PM
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P.S. Plz know that I am totaly aware that my points might be shockingly immature. I have studied no philosophy, I haven't read many books. So I hope this doesn't come as a surprise and you say "DIE IDIOT, GO AWAY FROM ANUS" :o


Depending on how you view things, it could be said that he's following values passed down by humans, but viewed another way, it could be said that these values were given to them by the Earth itself. Of course, it could also be said that the universe gave the Earth these values. It could be said that you gave him these values, just as he showed them to you.

My advice? DO read philosophy, but simultaneously read about myths and religious texts, then the occult. Never stop reading. Absorb as much information as is available to you, as well as the means to organize it (philosophy). If you truly have gotten this far without knowing shit about philosophy, to be open-minded in the direction you are being open-minded in, open to that which makes you uncomfortable, keep going until you fear nothing, and the above paragraph makes sense.