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Values as self-pleasing human creation?

Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 05:39:58 AM
Greetings to everybody this is my first post... Thank you for reading this...

This ideology is something that was building in me for years but still being 18 it might be total teenage shit so feel free to call it that way if you think so, I'm not so fanatic about my theories anyway.

I was listening to Burzum some days ago, a black metal band which I know is representative of the genre but still I haven't managed to enter to its full depth. I always liked Darkthrone more as a paternal figure for me in Black Metal. I think they were more innovative, always one step further than the other fellows. Of course up to Transilvanian Hunger, not after that. Anyway, so trying to get to Burzum I was interested to have a look on Varg's ideology.

My natural response to all this would be "DIE FASCIST DIE DIE" but however, I tried to be more open-minded. I understood that this man is full of values. Ethics play a huge and important role in this kind of people. They view themselves as messagers, that they have some kind of mission in their lives. Now this mission specificly on Varg, which originates in Pagan Ancestry or I don't know what, was passed down from generation to generation, from parents to childern etc etc. So, in my opinion this could very easily be propaganda that some ancestor made up, maybe to defend the homecountry or for other reasons and was immortalized by all the next generations. Filling Vargs head with values he could do nothing but accept them and host this ideology.

Generally, Values bring pleasure to a person when he upholds them. Having no values at all, a person would collapse into being an animal that would want to fulfill its needs. So my question is simple: Are values created by humans to please themselves?

Maybe sub-conciously or by some strange mechanism I don't know. Perhaps the parents say: "DO THIS IT'S GOOD, UPHOLD THAT IDEA AND YOU'RE GOOD". The kid remebered that and actually felt good when for example he managed to get another kid to go with him/her to church or he said good things about his home country etc etc. Then the kid started to deepen his philosophy into that but wasn't able to see that value is not some energy or entity or what, but a simple creation of the mind, which is absolutely selfish and nowhere near being an open-minded result of searching for the truth.

Of course there is no biological evidence that endorphins would be released into our bodies when we pray to god or when we uphold ancient Norway or when we say "GO GO GO AWAY BAD PEOPLE, WHORES ETC" to satanists or girls that have sex at the age of 13 or bad-ass anarchists that burn down a bank. So, unlike food, sex, shit, peeing and other needs as being social etc etc, values are creation of our brain. And because of that, are not as important as other things in life.

What do you think of this?

P.S. Plz know that I am totaly aware that my points might be shockingly immature. I have studied no philosophy, I haven't read many books. So I hope this doesn't come as a surprise and you say "DIE IDIOT, GO AWAY FROM ANUS" :o

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 06:59:43 AM
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We are born and only later awaken to the possibilities of our lives. Our brains come first, then our minds grow within them. In this awakening process, we come to realize that an external world exists, and operates by consistent principles. If at that point we decide that we like being alive, we change our values to encourage the life process that produced us.


Nihilism



Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 09:26:49 AM
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My natural response to all this would be "DIE FASCIST DIE DIE" but however, I tried to be more open-minded. I understood that this man is full of values. Ethics play a huge and important role in this kind of people. They view themselves as messagers, that they have some kind of mission in their lives. Now this mission specificly on Varg, which originates in Pagan Ancestry or I don't know what, was passed down from generation to generation, from parents to childern etc etc. So, in my opinion this could very easily be propaganda that some ancestor made up, maybe to defend the homecountry or for other reasons and was immortalized by all the next generations. Filling Vargs head with values he could do nothing but accept them and host this ideology.
 
Generally, Values bring pleasure to a person when he upholds them. Having no values at all, a person would collapse into being an animal that would want to fulfill its needs. So my question is simple: Are values created by humans to please themselves?  
 
Maybe sub-conciously or by some strange mechanism I don't know. Perhaps the parents say: "DO THIS IT'S GOOD, UPHOLD THAT IDEA AND YOU'RE GOOD". The kid remebered that and actually felt good when for example he managed to get another kid to go with him/her to church or he said good things about his home country etc etc. Then the kid started to deepen his philosophy into that but wasn't able to see that value is not some energy or entity or what, but a simple creation of the mind, which is absolutely selfish and nowhere near being an open-minded result of searching for the truth.


I'm sure you'll love the L.o.C. movie when it comes out....

To be honest, and you even said it yourself, your post is fodder. Before this post makes it's way to compost (which I hope it will) allow me to give you some advice before you post again.

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I'm not so fanatic about my theories anyway.


Then why bother posting them? Now you're making people read them and apologizing about them at the same time. It's like jumping into the ring with Mike Tyson and then saying "Hey you know what? I'm not such a great boxer, but I just wanted to be here." People on this forum want to see a "good fight" if you know what I mean. It's half-baked posts like yours that drag the overall level of quality of this forum down. You said yourself you haven't done much reading yet, well then I suggest you go do some "training" and come back when you're confident about your theories. Until then you're simply not worth discussing with for someone who did bother to do some reading and listening to music before posting on this forum, and those are the people this forum seeks to attract. And it's weak posts like yours that drive those kind of people away so that's why I hope this thread goes to compost as well as all the other idiot-threads ("metal to write stories to" is another fine example IMHO of a such a thread)

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 12:04:30 PM
LOL

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 12:32:46 PM
all i could say is burzum's greatness doesn't come from his personal beliefs, for one, rascism. there are some many rascists all over the world, and that doesn't make them shit. but some people have values that if they feel they have to fufill, like religion, its like you'll feel incomplete if you don't become a nationalist and it works for christianity as well, if you don't follow your christian pathway.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 03:34:37 PM
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Generally, Values bring pleasure to a person when he upholds them. Having no values at all, a person would collapse into being an animal that would want to fulfill its needs. So my question is simple: Are values created by humans to please themselves?


There is an element of pleasure (good-feeling sensation) when values are upheld. However, I'd suggest that values are a form of defense and security - essentially a statement of one's health. Personal security is not necessarily about deriving pleasure from ideals.

Some wild liberals may consider someone such as myself to be ascetic. From this I get a fair amount of pleasure from laughing at degenerate morons. I'm more likely to trust someone that has similar ideals to myself as I know they won't have AIDS, engage in coprophagia, listen to Opeth or engage in ebony gangbang love.

Values ensure security for the individual and the community as a whole.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 03:55:59 PM
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To be honest, and you even said it yourself, your post is fodder. Before this post makes it's way to compost (which I hope it will) allow me to give you some advice before you post again.


Then why bother posting them? Now you're making people read them and apologizing about them at the same time. It's like jumping into the ring with Mike Tyson and then saying "Hey you know what? I'm not such a great boxer, but I just wanted to be here." People on this forum want to see a "good fight" if you know what I mean. It's half-baked posts like yours that drag the overall level of quality of this forum down. You said yourself you haven't done much reading yet, well then I suggest you go do some "training" and come back when you're confident about your theories. Until then you're simply not worth discussing with for someone who did bother to do some reading and listening to music before posting on this forum, and those are the people this forum seeks to attract. And it's weak posts like yours that drive those kind of people away so that's why I hope this thread goes to compost as well as all the other idiot-threads ("metal to write stories to" is another fine example IMHO of a such a thread)


To be honest: I thought that there are some people inside this forum that would be not "trained" enough like me. Ok if this forum is only for "trained" people I agree with you that this post is for the compost section. I wouldn't be offended the least.

Now for the "fanatic about my ideas" stuff. Don't be quick to misunderstand. I don't want to be fanatic about my ideas because that's what I continuously witness in people around me and I believe that it drives them to be far from open-minded.

I don't know about you but I don't actually see every post as a fight (or essentially a conversation with gurus of philosophy). Some posts might be questions that need some answers. And if you think this place is not appropriate for that feel free to recommend me a book instead of answer me in a post.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 04:49:09 PM
First of all let me be the one to point out that I am not a moderator here, I am merely a visitor. But it is my impression that this board is connected to a website that is filled with articles evolving around the subjects you so poorly attempt to address. You should have no need to ask me for a book to read, or to be making posts like this, if you would simply read the articles there. This goes for a lot of the posts that are placed in this forum, and it can really irritate the ones who have already passed that state of ignorance (if they ever were at that state, no offence) and want to move onward. Posts like yours demand a patronizing type of encouraging that I believe this forum should do well to abandon if people want any form of healthy debat to take place here. At most your post could cause reactions from more intelligent people than yourself, but a truly intelligent person would not be attracted to such a discussion as it offers little challenge or intellectual reward and is therefore not worth the effort. A discussion that starts off bad requires constant correcting and therefore can not lead us beyond where we are now.

Others might see it differently, like I said I am not a moderator.

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I thought that there are some people inside this forum that would be not "trained" enough like me.

I do see that as saying: "Hey I'm a moron, why can't I discuss this with morons then?"

You can, but not here please.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 25, 2006, 07:43:40 PM
Values are preferences that help you survive well. Of course they're a human creation. That doesn't diminish their validity at all. Our problem is that now, the underlying structure to our consensual values is shit. Our societies are not based on consensus. So as Nietzsche said, we re-evaluate all values. Zen monks and Osama bin Ladin would probably agree.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 26, 2006, 02:52:25 AM
there is a theory where humans don't truly feel sad about the passing of a friend or friends, it is just a reaction for you chances of surviving became slimmer. Especially for weak creatures like us its important (in a naturalistic world) to work together and where everyone has a key role to play. So risking your life in the immediate future by fighting of a bear with several others to save a friend is simply increasing your chances of survival in the future because that "friend" made existence much easier. So it could possible be true to say that morals are just an invention to help social creatures with higher intelligence to protect themselves

euronymous

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 26, 2006, 07:21:33 AM
Interesting.

I have to think more about it but first impression is that what you're saying is very near if not the same as the idea of love as a selfish feeling rather than an altruistic one.


aimanirrajim

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 26, 2006, 04:04:29 PM
values are a way of filling "the void", emptiness. but some values are better than others. for example, the values that varg uphold is in favor of a better world, by standing by Nature and by eliminating the weak and breeding the best. As cruel as it may sound, his values are of a higher worth than the christian ones, where the stupid and retarded are welcome in their sick societies, polluting and overpopulating the Earth and leading us all towards decay; and then death.

so, yes, as a nihilist i do personally believe that values are a way of pleasing the self, not only the physical self, but the soul.

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 26, 2006, 08:03:00 PM
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values are a way of filling "the void", emptiness. but some values are better than others. for example, the values that varg uphold is in favor of a better world, by standing by Nature and by eliminating the weak and breeding the best. As cruel as it may sound, his values are of a higher worth than the christian ones, where the stupid and retarded are welcome in their sick societies, polluting and overpopulating the Earth and leading us all towards decay; and then death.

so, yes, as a nihilist i do personally believe that values are a way of pleasing the self, not only the physical self, but the soul.


Are things that polarized though? Aren't there more paths than two? or is everything Black and White?

Annihilaytorr

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 26, 2006, 10:16:25 PM
It's obvious that religion, morals, and humanity's herd tendencies are all products of evolution to help control the complex minds that form a complex society. From the looks of things, evolution failed, as time and time again our religions, values and mob instincts lead us into oblivion. Perhaps a later stage of human evolution will have resolved these inherent biological conflicts that as is invariably leads to the destruction of ourselves and our planet.

aimanirrajim

Re: Values as self-pleasing human creation?
October 27, 2006, 02:53:19 AM
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Are things that polarized though? Aren't there more paths than two? or is everything Black and White?
the thing is, varg's value system interacts with Reality in a healthy way, where as the christian one interacts with Reality in a bad way. it doesn't matter what values you uphold, if it interacts with Reality in a good way, then it is favorable. take this for example; you can be a national socialist or you can be an eco-fascist, which are two seperate paths, but interact with Reality in a way that is good. comprende?