Charles Manson: Innocent?

[indjaseemun]

Writer and practicioner of "left-hand path" or "sinister way" Nikolas Shcreck wrote a book years ago called the Manson File with some facts trying to prove Manson was not what the media made him out to be and that the Helter Skelter story was a total myth.

Now very recently he released an uptaded version of the book, the Apocalypse Edition, with over 900 pages with new facts.

You can read interviews with him about Manson on his website: http://nikolasschreck.eu . There are some other interesting interviews there too. I always thought Manson had ordered the murder of a pregnant woman - I think I was wrong.

(I never say maybe - things happened one way only. You can't say "maybe it happened this way, maybe it didn't)

[Sammaellofi]

The fact is, no matter who is right, we all agree that Manson didn't kill anyone, therefore, he should not have gone to prison.  It is a very ugly thing when we say that people can go to jail because someone else said the only reason they killed somenoe was because they were told to do it.  People need to be held accountable for their own action.  At any point prior to those murders, the murderers could have said "ok, I'm not doing this", and I don't believe any psuedo-religious psychological counter otherwise.  All that does is justify the murders. 

[Von List]

I don't get all the attention Manson gets. He is a giant loser-rapist who helped engineer the deaths of others. Of course he had his hand in murder. 

[indjaseemun]

Sammael: Well, I would not say he did not kill anyone: That I don't know, but the book argues in favor of the notion that he was not responsible for what he is most famous. But he was a drug dealer and God knows what else.

Von List: How can you be so sure?

[Sammaellofi]

I mean he was not found guilty of actually physically murdering anyone, so he should not be in jail for it.  He may have killed other people or been a drug dealer, but you are right, we don't know that, because it was not proven in court or even brought up in court, so he should not be in jail.  It turns justice on its head when you can just blame someone else for a murder that you did. 

[Von List]

Didn't he basically admit to telling his followers to kill people in order to start a race war?

[Sammaellofi]

Didn't he basically admit to telling his followers to kill people in order to start a race war?

Von List, I would like you to go kill people so that it will start a race war.

If you actually go do it, is it my fault?

[scourge]

They wanted to make a Nuremburg trial out of a domestic American case. What does justice have to do with any of it?

[Von List]

Didn't he basically admit to telling his followers to kill people in order to start a race war?

Von List, I would like you to go kill people so that it will start a race war.

If you actually go do it, is it my fault?

Lets be honest here, I'm not sure of the exact details, but I *do* believe he commanded them to do it. He didn't just "liked" for it to happen, he actually told them who to target. In my mind, you're a part of the murder if you help plan it.

[Sammaellofi]

I could just as easy command you to do it as I could ask you to do it.  If it is a command, are you any more likely to do it?

Yes he might have helped plan it.  But he didn't do it.  He didn't kill them with his hands and he had no choice as to wheher it would even happen or not.  I think we need to return to personal responsibility.  The way we have it now, a pizza delivery guy could kill you, and we would blame the guy who own's the pizza place.  This only allows people to blame their circumstances and other people and get away with justifying murder. 

Think about it.  I could murder someone and blame society.   I could murder random muslims and say it represented the message sent by my country.  I could even say that society caused me to be poor and that murdering a person and taking his money was my only recourse for survival.  I see that argument as just as valid as "Oh he was our religous leader guy and he had like psychological control over us and like it was his fault."

[Sammaellofi]

They wanted to make a Nuremburg trial out of a domestic American case. What does justice have to do with any of it?

Sorting out such a problematic society calls for many losing battles.  I feel ridiculous trying to make heads or tails out of some arguments, but I guess that's no reason to give up.  I guess...

[indjaseemun]

That's the point, von list: The author is trying to prove this was not the way it happened, it provides a new background on the story, and the book also provides a lot of facts about manson and his views. It's hard to just say "Well it doesn't matter, it happened that way, period" I'm not saying that Schreck is right either.