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Why did punk die?

Re: Why did punk die?
November 04, 2006, 03:01:29 PM
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BY the mid to late late eighties, the rise of bands like Metallica and Slayer suddenly made everyone in the punk scene start to forget about 'message rather than music ' and everyone began to bring in more aspects of guitar wizardry and metal. This led to the term Crossover.

You speak about metal on this board as though it has a real strand of rebellion running through it.

Metal as a rule has never been about real ideas or activism. The Norwegian second wave was the closest thing to activism metal has ever seen.


The reason I come here is that this site likes the metal that is not activist, but critical of society by rediscovering real meaning. Metal isn't rebellion, but it's antisocial. We call it Romanticist because it embraces quality of experience over quantity of comfort.

Activism is shit. It depends on taking one of two failing sides and bleating that repetitively. The reason punk died was this kind of bleating, not because all the punk bands wanted to be metal.

You're right about the Norwegians, though. Very little since has had that Romantic spirit or any awareness of the world at large. Most of it now has gone back to the heavy metal state of beer drinking, chick banging, moron music. But heavy metal of that type was what came after the originators like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, King Crimson and Judas Priest. It's not specific to metal. Most popular music is that way. It's hijacking of the original darkness of Black Sabbath into music for those who want to evade responsibility.

Re: Why did punk die?
November 04, 2006, 03:14:22 PM
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You speak about metal on this board as though it has a real strand of rebellion running through it. Don't make me laugh.


Metal was always more than rebellion. Why is rebellion considered some sort of noble goal? This is the activity of a peasant rabble, not intelligent visionaries who have a better way in mind.

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Marches such as 'stop the city', squatting and political discussion were prevalent leading to a strong counterculture.


Yes, effectively this punk evolution was the 1960s hippie counterculture version 2. Metal offered more than only screaming about problems. Metal showed listeners another way. Punk never did this.

Re: Why did punk die?
November 04, 2006, 03:35:49 PM
Anarcho-punk died out because it was a one note musical temper tantrum with nowhere else to go the second the last chord of Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing was laid to wax.  And frankly, the idea that genre's cartoon leftism was 'threatening' to anyone is fucking ludicrous - it's worth noting that the major censorship efforts of the era were directed at metal, not punk.

Re: Why did punk die?
November 04, 2006, 05:11:14 PM
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one note musical temper tantrum


That sounds like a lot of current metal, except replace "one note" with "one riff"

Re: Why did punk die?
November 05, 2006, 06:44:50 AM
Dionysius wrote:

No, it was their own political-correctness that killed these bands. Just look at what a lot of these people are doing now, the Ex is a fine example of punk having lost it's original focus IMHO.  

True...political correctness also played a part in the downfall of anarchist punk. I did not mention this because I was talking about the impact metal had on punk....which for punk ,was negative.  


Dionysius wrote: Wrong, the first punk had no clear message except that of "I'm bored and wanna rebel" When punk became about serious (left-wing) politics it simply adopted the same values as the peace-movement, which had also inspired the hippies. You're mistaken if you want to suggest that punk was the first politically active sub-culture.


I wasn't talking about where punk originally came from.....which I am fully aware of. I was talking specifically about the rise of Anarchist punk in the late 70's specifically starting at Crass. And yes, you are totally right, it was just another an extension of the hippy / peace movement....but in black army clothes

Dionysius wrote: So you mean to tell me that all the anarchist bands were united and serving the same cause? Wrong again, lot's of them hated each other and had different ideas about what anarchy was supposed to be about (Exploited and Crass and Dead Kennedies all hated each other for instance)

Again totally right. But I would never attempt to suggest that there was a unified Anarchist scene. There never will be, or could be....my points were quick and generalising...to get across my point that the vacuousness of metal helped kill punk.

Dionysius wrote:I'm not sure if Slayer and Metallica stole any fans from the punk-crowd, were you in those days? Then you should probably know that metalheads and hardcore kids didn't go to each other's shows because they'd get beaten up. It was bands like Venom and Motorhead that united metalheads and punks, not Slayer as far as I know. Watch what James Hetfield has to say in this about those days. In same the documentary you'll see Anthrax saying that they were the first east-coast band that had a strong group of hardcore kids in their crowd. And I think crossover was a term invented for the bands that followed the traces of DRI, and for what DRI was doing later. And as far as Carcass and Bolt Thrower, those bands emerged at the end of the eighties so I really don't see your point there. You seem to have the whole eighties mixed up.

You are right about Venom, And no, I am not mixed up. And yes, I was there....As I stated in my original post, I am merely trying to get across that the influence of metal ( which has no real ideology except  basic rock n roll ethos) was negative to Anarchist punk...which although had a borrowed ideology....at least had one.

Dionysius wrote: But let's not kid ourselves that your post has some 'deeper intelligent strand' running through it. Next time you start a post with "hold on fools" I might just ignore it, for that first line already suggest one would be a fool to pay attention to what you have to say.


My post does have a deeper strand running through it though. It's just that I only have enough time and space to get my points across to you at this time. I could discuss this for hours if you like....My point still stands....metal is moronic. Always has been....and unfortunately, always will be.

Punk is equally as useless.....but compared to metal it at least has aspects that are relevant to the world (lyrics, imagery etc)...metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.



Re: Why did punk die?
November 05, 2006, 11:39:04 AM
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As I stated in my original post, I am merely trying to get across that the influence of metal ( which has no real ideology except  basic rock n roll ethos) was negative to Anarchist punk...which although had a borrowed ideology....at least had one.

My point still stands....metal is moronic. Always has been....and unfortunately, always will be.


I think we're saying the same thing here, the two groups. You suffer a bit from anti-metal bigotry, but we'd be lying if we said that most metal had ideology. But it's important to realize that metal had an underground, too. Black Sabbath was not apolitical, nor without ideology, although their drug habits led them to Christ and adulterated it around "Master of Reality" (all cokeheads and former porn stars discover Bibles in rehab). But what about NWOBHM?

Look at what happened in metal... 1970 was the first Black Sabbath album. Within a few years, there were imitators. So NWOBHM happened. Five years later, NWOBHM + Discharge created speed, death and black metal.

What's good about metal is that it doesn't try to have an activist ideology. It is more artistic and less static and so is more flexible over the years. Metal's ideology is anti-social: it believes the crowd is wrong, it believes reality is real, and that most people are delusional. It is anti-society but pro-experience and as a result is both anarchistic and fascistic.

Like most genres, though, there is no certification program (except ANUS). So for every band that gets it there are fifteen Bon Jovis and Carpathian Forests, and their ideology is beer + tits. That's the rock influence. Both metal and punk suffer from having descended from, in the mainstream view, pop music.

I think you have to keep an open mind about the best of the genre and not blame it for the entropy that results when the crowd floods in and wants a simpler, more convenient ideology.

I could easily blame the Dead Kennedys for turning punk into paint-by-numbers and scream at bands like Bad Religion for turning it into a rebellion trend. The message that I get from this history is that any genre that wishes to survive will have to be artistic, adaptable, and stay ahead of its imitators.

Even progressive rock got imitated. We don't have many of these bands any more, since they were terrible, but there were a whole string of Opeth-style Yes clones in the late 1970s.

Some genres produce nothing but junk. What was disco's ideology?

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metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.


Here we disagree: you are confusing ideology with dogma. Metal chooses a poetic path, while punk chose a political one. The poetic path instills philosophy and the political path creates partisanship and dogma. Would anarchy work? No. Would anarchy solve our problems? No. What does a Romanticist ethic create? A sense of values that can be applied to any ideology, as conveyed through an experience that illustrates itself. It's more convincing, more lasting, and less like running our brains through a machine which tells us what to say.

Black metal if anything is something you should champion, as the presellout bands were completely opposed to the beer + tits ideology (excepting Impaled Nazarene, who were basically punkers).

Re: Why did punk die?
November 07, 2006, 01:45:12 AM
Punk died because it never had any ideas that were really different from those in society already. Anarchy is "I want it my way" which when you think about it isn't different from capitalism or democracy except in degree.

Re: Why did punk die?
July 23, 2010, 12:29:06 AM
Same reason environmentalism has turned into green consumerism will save the world and tax the rich countries to pay for industrializing poor countries. The social justice retards saw an important movement gaining momentum and decided to ride its coattails as hangers-on which turned into a drag effect like an anchor.

Re: Why did punk die?
July 23, 2010, 03:00:22 PM
Same reason environmentalism has turned into green consumerism will save the world and tax the rich countries to pay for industrializing poor countries. The social justice retards saw an important movement gaining momentum and decided to ride its coattails as hangers-on which turned into a drag effect like an anchor.

That's true. I see two reasons punk died:

1. Entropy. Every movement gradually gets boiled down to a consumer product, and ideology is replaced by appearance.
2. Assimilation. Punk's statement, "think for yourself!", is the same root idea of the rest of modern society, including consumerism, capitalism, selfishness and greed. It was a false rebellion.

Black metal hit the same wall. #1 was bigger, but in the case of #2, its anti-Christian activism replaced the ideological shift it wanted to create: a strike against egalitarianism and anthrocentricism.

Re: Why did punk die?
July 23, 2010, 04:29:15 PM
A punk i met travelling through Norway said punk was dead until president Bush was elected, since alot of punk is political, this got the scene, or at least A scene going for a little while.  However since then it diminished and died down once again.  Speaking of Norway, in Trondheim there is a punk house/bar/cafe that hosts hardcore punk shows, and every year punks all over Norway come down and jam for a few days.  I walked by the house after the event had wrapped up, big house with a huge painting of a punk on the side, a big fence gating off the backyard, LOTS of beer bottles everywhere, and people fucking on the roof.

Re: Why did punk die?
July 24, 2010, 12:05:35 AM
A punk i met travelling through Norway said punk was dead until president Bush was elected, since alot of punk is political, this got the scene, or at least A scene going for a little while.  However since then it diminished and died down once again.  Speaking of Norway, in Trondheim there is a punk house/bar/cafe that hosts hardcore punk shows, and every year punks all over Norway come down and jam for a few days.  I walked by the house after the event had wrapped up, big house with a huge painting of a punk on the side, a big fence gating off the backyard, LOTS of beer bottles everywhere, and people fucking on the roof.
Goddamn man, all that anti-Bush stuff was terrible.  What sort of eternal values does "impeach Bush!" or "Bush is a Nazi" illustrate?  What light does that shed on reality?  Even the dessicated corpse of country music doesn't stink that bad...
(to the tune of Lee Greenwood's song)
"cause I'd proudly stand up
next to you and hang Obama here today"

NHA

Re: Why did punk die?
July 24, 2010, 04:04:49 AM
Punk is equally as useless.....but compared to metal it at least has aspects that are relevant to the world (lyrics, imagery etc)...metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.

As far as I can tell, they're both escapist fantasies for an isolated fringe minority who have little to no impact on the world around them. Blackmetal is a lot more nerdy because its escaping to something far removed from current reality, to most people it leaves the same impression as a man walking down the street dressed as Henry VIII. With punks you have a different and more extroverted approach - such as the self important rebel/activist fantasy that many leftists indulge in, which interestingly mirrors the power/control fantasies that neo nazis are often characterized as having.

If you listen to those so called "behind the scenes" interviews with a cast of some random Hollywood production, the people being interviewed all have the same irritating passive aggressive way of self-aggrandizing themselves and the people they work with while simultaneously trying to act humble. Amusingly, this same pattern seems to pop up often when listening to people talk about Classic Rock or Punk. NOT LIKE US ARISTOCRATIC PHILOSOPHER KING HESHERS LOLAMIRITE.