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Revisionist History

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:04:45 PM
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Didn't Slayer cover the Venom song 'Witching Hour' on their Live Intrusion video? Doesn't this suggest influence?




Of course. The real question here is why we have wasted so much time debating the flagrantly obvious.


EDIT - If I would have just posted this link, this would have saved the forum the trouble of reading this nonsense.

http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=mp3;action=display;num=1148684888

Venom influence established. Case forever closed.


Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:09:16 PM
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Of course. The real question here is why we have wasted so much time debating the flagrantly obvious.



Because you have some desperate need to take the DLA to task for failing to write an artistic non-entity like Venom into the history of black metal?

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:10:10 PM
Yea, Motorhead's satanic thematics and evil sound is all over early Possessed and Slayer...oh wait, shut up. I hate to be an asshole about this but this has become fucking rediculous. While it is clear that Venom is derived from Motorhead, Venom make clear steps beyond Motorhead in aesthetic and riff style.


Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:21:55 PM
EDIT - hmm, not only does the DLA mention Venom for their influence, apparently so does My Mang in his own Venom review!

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Motorhead, not Venom, were the big influence on the early US speed metal bands.


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There are many things that can be said about Venom's landmark release "Black Metal." That it, along with the band's "Welcome to Hell" debut, was seminal to all extreme metal to come is undeniable. That it not only sparked the black metal movement, but gave it a name and helped develop its early iconography and ideological leanings is well known at this point.



Edit 2 - Here is another post from a few years ago by Falconsbane.
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While there are some few black metal recordings which predate it (most notably Angel Witch's self-titled debut), any history of black metal most properly begins with Venom's landmark Welcome to Hell. This album would form the blueprint for virtually all black metal to follow with its raw application of EVIL to the realm of music. Venom would release two further unquestioned masterpieces, one of which lent its name to the emerging subgenre, Black Metal. Following in the wake of Venom, the 1980's saw a flowering of what was to be the FIRST WAVE of black metal. In 1983, Tom G. Warrior released Apocalyptic Raids with his band Hellhammer before going on to more widespread notoriety with Celtic Frost. Though dismissed at the time by many who were too enamoured of Metallica, Maiden and Slayer to see its genius, the simple atavistic structures of Apocalyptic Raids would have a profound influence on later generations of black metallers. Beginning life in 1984 as something of a Venom clone, Bathory, the one man gang consisting of madman Quorthon and his instruments, would go on to become arguably the second most influential band of the first wave, right on the heels of Venom. The "lizard like" shriek he introduced has become so synonymous with black metal that many uninformed metalheads believe this vocal style to define the genre. Quorthon also was one of the primary innovators of the fast tremelostrum technique widely prevalent in black metal to this day. Bathory's 1986 masterpiece Under the Sign of the Black Mark stands as one of the landmark albums, not just of black metal, but metal in general. Other notable bands of the first wave include Sodom, Mercyful Fate, Sarcofago and the mysterious Bay Area act Von.



Nile577

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:37:11 PM
They may be stylistic innovators but I consider them mostly a joke artistically. What's your view?

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 07:45:18 PM
I think the fact Venom was a joke is the main reason for all this stupid shit in the first place. As if them being semi-serious would somehow undermine the credibility of Darkthrone. It's hilarious.

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 14, 2006, 10:24:48 PM
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Because you have some desperate need to take the DLA to task for failing to write an artistic non-entity like Venom into the history of black metal?



Hmm, actually Falcy, looks like the DLA has written Venom into the history of BM for exactly what it is.

http://anus.com/metal/von/

"Much in the way Venom functioned a generation earlier to liberate the aesthetic of metal at the time, Von broke through barriers in conceptions of songwriting and what constitutes a song, and in doing so gave place to the next generation more inclined to develop musicality within those frameworks."

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 09:50:00 AM
I think the biggest problem most people seem to be having is that they think something isn't part of Black Metal unless Anus says it is.

I wouldn't worry about Venom not being mentioned much on this site.  They'll be remembered.  If they managed to be remembered this long, then they will last into the next generation since all those other Black Metal bands covered them and every Euronymous interview credits them.

In fact, I think it's funny that you all try to deny venom even though the members of the genre(save for Varg) accept them and agree with their inclusion.

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 10:07:07 AM
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Hmm, actually Falcy, looks like the DLA has written Venom into the history of BM for extactly what it is.

http://anus.com/metal/von/

"Much in the way Venom functioned a generation earlier to liberate the aesthetic of metal at the time, Von broke through barriers in conceptions of songwriting and what constitutes a song, and in doing so gave place to the next generation more inclined to develop musicality within those frameworks."



Old review - view in the same jaundiced light that you would the formerly positive review of Storm of the Light's Bane that once graced the pages of the DLA.

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 10:28:11 AM
Wrong again, as you see that review is markedly different than it was about a year ago when it claimed that Von was designed as a mockery of Bathory.  


Wolfbane

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 01:04:33 PM
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Massacra and Rigor Mortis are over played here, I agree, but not so with Necrovore (please see Immolation, Morbid Angel, Incantation and others for details)  


I wasn't talking about Necrovore (who get their rightful due here) I was thinking of Averse Sefira, Rigor Mortis, etc. that this board likes to talk too much about. I always thought of Rigor Mortis as a poor man's Slayer.

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 01:10:10 PM
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Wrong again, as you see that review is markedly different than it was about a year ago when it claimed that Von was designed as a mockery of Bathory.  



Some of the content is quite old however - and the last year has seen significant tweaking by multiple hands.

The point is fairly irrelevant - Venom's contribution was tiny no matter how you slice it.

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 01:16:07 PM
In popular music, many things are oversold. That's what happens when you have product as your motivation, not art.

Venom were clueless rockers who by being clumsy added "aesthetic" or sound but not any musical or artistic elements. Everything they did Motorhead did first.

Speaking as an oldtimer, Venom was most influential on Metallica... more than Slayer, who were obvious really into Oi and Discharge as well as the generation before Venom.

But mostly when we talk of Venom, like the blues, we have to ask: did this contribute something nothing else did? No. So... why bother?

Annihilaytorr

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 01:44:51 PM
Point out one Motorhead riff that sounds anything like the opening riffs on To Hell and Back, Burn the Witch, or Rip Ride. I think there is quite a big leap between "Iíll be Your Sister" and "At Dawn They Sleep".  

Falconsbane, you asked for examples to prove my case, and when confronted with them, totally ignored them. If your ego prevents you from conceding error that is fine, but you can at least save face by stopping your compulsive replies to an argument you clearly can't win.

Venom may have been a sloppy, tongue in cheek joke, but without them, there would be no Seven Churches and no Hell Awaits, and for this, they deserve credit.


Yea it is true that Rigor Mortis are an unimportant speed metal band, but hey, they make the opening to Doogie Howser interesting, and for that, they deserve credit.

Wolfbane

Re: Revisionist History.
November 15, 2006, 02:53:11 PM
Metallica was heavily influenced by venom. So was every other underground metal band in the 80s. Venom took what Motorhead did, stripped it down to a dark and primitive form of music which influenced several metal bands. Motorhead had more of a hard rock vibe, Venom didn't.