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Rob Darken: Hessian

NHA

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 01:12:51 PM
So Rob Darken's statement are not relevant? Not even somewhat? I disagree, I think Rob's statements are relevant, although presented in a slightly sentimental manner. Is he an expert? Perhaps not, but that does not mean he has not discovered some inkling of truth. 

Hes no different than Lady Gaga when shes trying to be political.

Yes, this is a little rant, but just me snapping some one's neck is lovely for me! ;)

Don't make me tie your hands, Italian, you know what happens to your ability to speak without them.


Modern life is so goddamn boring and serious, we need to feel like we're part of a destiny.

It's actually pretty interesting what kind of effect you can bring out of this. Hitler and Joan of Arc are two good examples of people who's self deluded idea of providence ended up being a major catalyst for their success.

 


Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 01:42:54 PM
True, but I am stronger then your average joe!

I suppose the point was to imply that since you will NOT budge in your stance neither will I. Trust me when I say I have faced death straight on. I had to, to come to this country.

I can not further comment of the way you view things as to I do not know enough to assume anything at this point. You have your life experience that is not easily swayed but any other opinions. This is more then respectable.

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 03:09:29 PM
Yes, this is a little rant, but just me snapping some one's neck is lovely for me! ;)

Don't make me tie your hands, Italian, you know what happens to your ability to speak without them.

Sorry, not contributing to the discussion; just wanted to point out that I laughed pretty hard at this. Hah.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

NHA

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 04:23:46 PM
Sorry, not contributing to the discussion; just wanted to point out that I laughed pretty hard at this. Hah.

Italians are awesome haha.

Last time i was in Rome i passed by some middle aged woman in a crowd and her scarf caught my arm and fell off. When i went back to return it, her reaction was if i had just found her baby in the gutter and taught it how to shit gold.

 

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 06:41:28 PM
How true, that we do talk with our hands a lot, but as the years pass by, as much as I love the Italian culture, I am first and foremost a metalhead.

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 10:04:55 PM
I must say I am thoroughly enjoying the light heartedness and good will of all those commenting on this thread.....

NHA- it seems you have an uncanny ability....you seem unable to answer a question! Why are we not engaging in conversation to discover the merit of what Darken is saying. Are his ideas relevant? Has he discovered some inkling of truth?

You have shut down all possibiity of discussion by equating Darken with Gaga and assuming that those who engage with Darken are simply braindead fanboys, how is this productive?


"  Jesus Christ Submitted To The Roman Emperor At His Birth And At His Death: Jesus Christ Never Submitted to Man-Made Modern Democracy! "

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
February 29, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
Sounds like Darken and NHA would better have this out in a duel?

NHA

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 01, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
You have shut down all possibiity of discussion by equating Darken with Gaga and assuming that those who engage with Darken are simply braindead fanboys, how is this productive?

Fine lets go line by line then.

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"The Past is as mysterious as the future. Compared to the power of the Universe a concept of time is just another illusion which a man takes as a guide in his life. Time is an illusion.
Not much to disagree with here. The brain is operating on an abstract model of reality based on a few sensory inputs that only detect a small fraction of what surrounds them. Time is as real as a brick to the face but our perception of it is incomplete.

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At the present time man is more distant from the Truth than it was in the beginning.
Sounds important but is mostly just vague speculation about the even more nebulous concept of truth.

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Mterialism replaces spirituality
Materialism has arguably been a stronger driving force for humanity than spirituality for most of our existence. Man is mostly motivated by fear and self interest of which materialism or spirituality are just expressions of in varying contexts.
What often happens to fanatics like Girolamo Savonarola who hold spirituality above all else and allow their virtue to become a vice? They end up alienating the normal people around them. Spirituality is a natural expression of man trying to make sense of his world yet it universally evolves into a tool for those looking to further their material gain. The catholic church has no shortage of these types of examples. An interesting one is the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars, who among other things, criticized the materialism of the Catholic church. The whole crusade was an obvious land grand by the north which even the king wasn't a big fan of (he had nothing to gain financially from it). Even in tribal societies. Who has the most toys, the coolest hat and does the least amount of physical labor? Probably the shaman.


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We limit ourselves basing our confidence in technology. it is a straight way to self destruction.
Technology has always been the crutch humanity has used to survive. Ted Kaczynski provides a much more compelling argument, but its mostly against technology that requires large scale centralized infrastructure IIRC.

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From the beginning of our existence on earth we are losing our spiritual and supernatural abilitites in favour for materialism that destroys our planet. This process has a name -- it is called de--evolution. Light and wisdom of the Atlantean civilization still flows in us. It is in our blood and it becomes a force that is still able to inspire us to follow a different route...Openess to the spiritual dimensions of the Universe is the key to find harmony and save our planet from chaos.
Erowid.org


The rest is just him describing his artistic motivation for the album, which is fine.

So what does it amount to?
- A casual (and irrelevant) observation on the nature of human perception.
- The notion that people in the mainstream are superficial and materialistic and that somehow they weren't in the past.
- Some New-Age nonsense about supernatural abilities.
- A weak Luddist sentiment mixed with the basic concept that blowing up the planet is a bad idea .

Sounds kinda like a Hippie to me - which is why i jokingly posted the Uli Jon Roth picture.

The text has no real content and is mostly fluff that tries to sound more important than it is. Which is also why i said, that aside from the block about his album motivations, the text is mostly an artist shoveling bullshit at a press release.

NHA

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 01, 2012, 04:03:14 AM
Sounds like Darken and NHA would better have this out in a duel?

Why? Its more about his fanboys than it is about him. He has several albums that i like a lot.

Duels were mostly limited to the nobility (which musicians usually aren't a part of) and kind of bullshit anyway. They wanted to prove they were willing to risk death for their honor yet most duels were geared towards lightly wounding someone and not killing them.

Kinda reminds me of bullfighting. An interesting expression of mans ability to dominate a 1000 lb beast in theory but in practice the bull is severely outnumbered and crippled and the bullfighter really isn't in that huge risk of death.

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 03, 2012, 03:32:03 PM
I have to say I agree with NHA. Is Darken a magical Noble savage now? Kevin Costner? Throughout history material gain has been the main catalyst for strife, and I don't even think I need to exemplify here, no? Moreover, even when materialism isn't there as an end in itself we can see it imbued in spiritual practice: Protestant work ethic aims for success in the material world to confirm the worth of the soul. It should be obvious then that the world needs both spirituality and materialism to function properly, like a car with both engine and gears.

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 03, 2012, 04:48:28 PM
Thanks for the response NHA!

-Darken is pre-supposing that his listeners and readers are familiar with Traditionalist thought ala Evola, Guenon and Schuon. You on the other hand come from a different school of thought and from reading your input it word appear you agree with the historical materialistic dialectic espoused by Marx, and the Freudian and later militant atheist notion that religion is simply the result of fear and is therefore puerile. I am assuming that you are currently enroled in a state college or university?
- In Darken's defence he at least uses the word Truth and puts himself in a position where he has to defend something versus the tired "everything is relative", "there is no truth" position which is inherently flawed and self contraditory.
-Materialism is a strong force and so is fear, we may summarize this as simply "egoism". All Traditions start at this point and try to raise man above his own ego so that he may gain greater insight into the nature of reality and his place therein. This is true Religion or Tradition (ie. a symbolic language that describes reality) and seems to be more akin to what Darken is saying. As for the Medieval Catholic Church, one can also say that there are no shortages of individuals who did the exact opposite of hypocritically using spirituality solely for the material gain it would provide (ie. Savonnarola, the Desert Father and countless Saints)
- The Catholic Church also condemned the Cathars because they considered all material manifestation evil, including children. Somehow pointing out that the Cathars condemned the Church for being to materialistic is ludicrous because they considered there hands to be to materialistic. If any form of spirituality would be alienating it would be one that creates a false dichotomy between the spiritual and material. The Church and secular society also condemned the Cathar's because they did not believe in taking oaths, or abiding by contacts. Contracts and oaths were of course the foundation of Medieval society (a time when someone's word meant something).
- Darken is not saying that there is a dichotomy between material and spiritual, this is a false dichotomy that others have read into what he is saying.
-Darken is not saying that we should destroy all technology, this is something that you have read into his statement. What he appears to be implying is that we cannot continue forward putting our blind faith in the saving graces of technology. Technology must be tempered by wisdom and when it is not it becomes destructive and begins to control us. Instead Darken wants people to turn to the past and rediscover the lost wisdom of there forefathers and apply the lessons to our modern context (this is the fundamental message of Darken and anyone who cannot see this is missing the forest for the trees). Is this silly? Not if time does not exist, or time is spherical as many New Right thinkers believe.

- As for Savonarola? Consider:

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried. ~ Gilbert Chesterton
 
Chesterton must have failed to consider Girolamo Savonarola when he penned that line. First of all, there is no merit in a religion that is not worth trying. Second, every path is difficult, from the yoga path of Patanjali, to the eightfold path of Buddha, even the Old Religion. In all of them, there is devotion, duty, action, and wisdom. Only an egalitarian thinks that everyone must succeed the same way. Isn’t that why we honor our Saints, Heroes, and Sages because some excel and point the way?
 
I won’t repeat the history of Savanorola’s rise to be Capo of Florence; those unfamiliar with that piece of history can easily look it up. In brief, Savanorola passed up the “easy life” in his father’s business. The bourgeois life of family and property had no appeal to him; but tradition did, so he chose the path of a Dominican monk. Driven by an intransigent piety, he was unaffected by the lures of money, sex, and power, much like Dostoyevsky’s idiot Prince. He was blessed [plagued?] with apocalyptic visions [hallucinations?] which came from God. These were the source of his power and his torment.
 


Initially, he did not stand out, but over time he became known for his devoutness and he attracted a devoted following to his fiery and inspiring sermons. A series of events including the death of Lorenzo de Medici, the invasion from France and the rebellion of Pisa led to a power vacuum which he was called upon to fill. Although Florence was at the peak of its economic power and the center of the intellectual Renaissance, this return to a Medieval cast of mind still appealed to a large portion of the public. As a sort of priest-king, he outlawed usury, made sodomy a capital crime (causing many in the upper crust to flee), and engaged roving street gangs to enforce moral codes. He is most known for the Bonfire of the Vanities, where citizens were encouraged to rid themselves of secular, sinful and vain items.
 
Was this truly the difficult Christian life Chesterton described? If so, was it truly that much different from life in the Ancient City? Evola regarded Savonarola as the last attempt of the ancient Aryan-Roman spirit to reassert itself amidst the decadence of the humanism of the Renaissance".

No wonder no one liked him, he held people to a higher standard. Does this sounds familiar?

 
All in all, it sounds to me like Darken's ideas are relevant, or at least thought provoking. However, I am just a Darken fanboy seeking after supernatural abilities........;0)
"  Jesus Christ Submitted To The Roman Emperor At His Birth And At His Death: Jesus Christ Never Submitted to Man-Made Modern Democracy! "

NHA

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 04, 2012, 12:15:29 AM
*** You on the other hand come from a different school of thought and from reading your input it word appear you agree with the historical materialistic dialectic espoused by Marx, and the Freudian and later militant atheist notion that religion is simply the result of fear and is therefore puerile.
The physical motivation for its creation isn't that relevant in my opinion. I think there are several different components that religion is constructed from which arise naturally out of the human mind. We could simplify it by describing it as a synergy of cultural habits (rituals, stories, personalities), philosophy and physical authority - or habits, thoughts, and power. It's not hard to imagine the aspect of power overshadowing the other two.

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*** In Darken's defence he at least uses the word Truth and puts himself in a position where he has to defend something versus the tired "everything is relative", "there is no truth" position which is inherently flawed and self contraditory.
His use of it really just comes across as a rhetorical device in my opinion. I'm not saying there is no Truth but that his use of it here is mostly empty and just to drive a point.


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*** The Catholic Church also condemned the Cathars because they considered all material manifestation evil, including children. Somehow pointing out that the Cathars condemned the Church for being to materialistic is ludicrous because they considered there hands to be to materialistic. If any form of spirituality would be alienating it would be one that creates a false dichotomy between the spiritual and material. The Church and secular society also condemned the Cathar's because they did not believe in taking oaths, or abiding by contacts. Contracts and oaths were of course the foundation of Medieval society (a time when someone's word meant something).


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The idea that flesh was inherently evil became popular in mainstream Christianity too - it was formalised in the concept of Original Sin and was enormously popular up until the twentieth century. Significantly, the doctrine of Original Sin was invented by St-Augustine, a Christian who had previously been a Manichean - ie a proto-Cathar. Today this traditional teaching is played down, and it comes as a shock to many Christians to hear the words like that of the Burial service from the Book of Common Prayer, contrasting an evil material body with a good spiritual one: ".... our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our vile body that it may be like to his glorious body."

Anyway my knowledge of the Cathars is very superficial but something along the lines of "Rejecting the wealth and temporal activities of the Catholic Church..." appears in most synopsis regarding them. The Catholic church had apparently started taxing the region and as a result increased public favor towards the Cathars who opposed it.

It seems the Cathars were well accepted and integrated into the south though. In Beziers the Catholics (who were given the option to leave freely) and Cathars fought together against Simon de Montefort.

The motivations for the crusade seem very much related to power/money/influence:
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- Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) was concerned with the growing influence of Catharism, and saw that it threatened the authority of the Church. He saw the movement as a heresy that needed to be eliminated, as were Arianism and Manichaenism in earlier times.
- The pope asked Philippe II Auguste, the French king (and a cousin to comte Raymond VI de Toulouse), to take action against high nobles in southern France who permitted Cathars to openly practice their faith. Philippe II did not comply, as he was facing a more direct threat from an alliance of the English king, Flemish nobles and the German Emperor.
- In 1206, the pope's legate, Amaury, sent his assistant, another Cistercian monk, Pierre de Castelnau, to Provence to form a league of knights to fight Catharism. Castelnau invited comte Raymond VI of Toulouse to lead this host. Raymond saw no value in such a campaign against this community that was widely spread and well ingranied in his lands. He rejected the "idea of waging war on his own subjects," and Castelnau called for Raymond VI's excommunication.
- The pope ratified the excommunication of Raymond in May 1207. On 13 January 1208, Raymond met with Pierre de Castelnau at Saint-Gilles, in Provence. The monk and Raymond argued and exchanged threats.
- The next morning (14 January), Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated as he was departing the town. His assassin was believed to have been an agent of comte Raymond VI.
- Pope Innocent III reacted by proclaiming a crusade against the 'sinister race' of Languedoc.


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*** Darken is not saying that we should destroy all technology, this is something that you have read into his statement. What he appears to be implying...
Hes vague and hasn't really said much. Most of our conversation on what he thinks is speculation i suppose.

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*** Instead Darken wants people to turn to the past and rediscover the lost wisdom of there forefathers and apply the lessons to our modern context (this is the fundamental message of Darken and anyone who cannot see this is missing the forest for the trees).
I think that everything else mentioned is irrelevant and this last quote is what it ultimately boils down to ^

Being the pessimistic asshole that i currently am: i see only a sentimental look back towards a distorted image of an ideal place that never existed. The concept of lost wisdoms and atlantean civilization is interesting but i don't see what practical use can be made of such fantasies.

Re: Rob Darken: Hessian
March 04, 2012, 02:48:53 AM
As per the original sin argument:

-That a notion was popular does not necessarily mean it was promulgated by the Church. Dualism is easy to fall into...... 

-The notion that the flesh is inherently evil is ludicrous given the fact that Christ took the form of human flesh. This is basic catechism.

In fact, this argument was used to dub the Cathar's as a  heretical sect.

- The authour of your qoute has already pre-supposed that original sin = flesh is evil. Original sin refers to the the disposition of a man's soul, left to his own devices and without the "grace of God" he will descend into chaos, much the same way that any closed system tends towards disorder. Vile does not mean inherently evil, it is a stretch on behalf of that authour to suppose that. To use the word Vile is meant only to elevate the glorious body of Christ above our own body, which while not inherently evil, is perhaps vile in contrast to the Son of God's, this does not imply dualism but rather how far we have to go before we took can be tranformed "into another Christ Jesus, for the glory of the father, and the Salvation of the world".

- Moreover, the book of common prayer is Anglican and only first appears around 1549.

- If the fleshly vehicle was inherently evil there would be no chance of attaining the beatific vision here on earth. Yet, this is possible. Again this is basic cathechism, whether explicity stated or not.


As for a lost place:

I disagree, man has a fundamental longing to rediscover a golden age (place), whether this corresponds to an actual physical reality or not is irrelevant. There is significance in the longing, what does it signify? Perhaps it corresponds to an inherent ideal man has for himself and his fellow man. The Atlantean rhetoric is a device Darken uses to stimulate a person's mythic imagination, but actually corresponds to an attainable state of being. You would do yourself a favour to not take the device so literally, your pessimism and cynicism is blocking your capacity to be philosophically charitable.
"  Jesus Christ Submitted To The Roman Emperor At His Birth And At His Death: Jesus Christ Never Submitted to Man-Made Modern Democracy! "