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What will quantum physics research do to Atheism?

I find it is never a good idea to let anyone else define my reality.
They generally miss 90% of it, and claim the bit they are unaware of, doesn't exist.

Evidence, from the Latin "evidere", "to look out".

Science, from Latin "scientia", "knowledge [of the physical]".

Religion, from Latin "religio", "knowledge [of the Gods]".

A bit of etymology clearly shows the problem we're facing here.  Too many people believe that the object(s) of their religion(s) are (or should be) tangible, physical things that exist in the material universe with which we interact.  As far as I understand it, any "spiritual" aspect of life is necessarily interior, thus, instead of evidence, we must attain invidence.

A man floating face up on the water will never know the depths beneath him, though the sky may entertain him.  You need to turn your perspective around before you can begin to explore whatever's behind your experience.

Religion, from religare [to bind]

For one, it's not.  Possibly related (Cicero seems to think so), but they have different meanings.

Secondly, compare: English "govern", from Latin "gubernare", "to steer a ship".

These verbs were used in non-literal senses, just as we use our languages colloquially.

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April 02, 2012, 06:11:38 PM
The universe may have a hidden order, but it's probably more like calculus than a deity. Especially  not one who looks like a glowy person in the sky.

If that hidden order was God, would you revere it?

If that hidden order was God, would you revere it?


If it wasn't, would you format your posts like a normal person? ;-)

It does absolutely nothing to atheism. Creation is one of any number of conceivable and inconceivable explanations. Even if there is some deity out there, we couldn't know what it is like.

I prefer wasting my time playing my PS3 than trying to figure out something that is beyond me.

Also,

atheism =/= the unyielding belief in randomness
Dawkins =/= the voice of all atheists

"the fundamental truth that there is no God, no soul, no nothing." How can you be so sure about that? Maybe you're right but what is the proofs of that? To my knowledge, there is no evidences in science about it.  If you can't back it  up with proofs, your argument have the same weight of someone who believes in God.



Right. So let's believe in holy men in the sky and our personal version of an afterlife. That will make the uncertainty go away.


It does absolutely nothing to atheism. Creation is one of any number of conceivable and inconceivable explanations. Even if there is some deity out there, we couldn't know what it is like.

I prefer wasting my time playing my PS3 than trying to figure out something that is beyond me.

Also,

atheism =/= the unyielding belief in randomness
Dawkins =/= the voice of all atheists

"the fundamental truth that there is no God, no soul, no nothing." How can you be so sure about that? Maybe you're right but what is the proofs of that? To my knowledge, there is no evidences in science about it.  If you can't back it  up with proofs, your argument have the same weight of someone who believes in God.



Right. So let's believe in holy men in the sky and our personal version of an afterlife. That will make the uncertainty go away.



How do you know a deity is unknowable fundamentally? I think if one does exist, it would likely be a life form bound by the laws of physics, that evolved in the dust of stars some point since the big bang. Something so huge and fundamentally different from us that we have yet to discover it out of our own carboncenterism.

Human Physics???


"the fundamental truth that there is no God, no soul, no nothing." How can you be so sure about that? Maybe you're right but what is the proofs of that? To my knowledge, there is no evidences in science about it.  If you can't back it  up with proofs, your argument have the same weight of someone who believes in God.



Right. So let's believe in holy men in the sky and our personal version of an afterlife. That will make the uncertainty go away.



I'm not saying that we should believe in a god or anything like that. I'm just saying that atheists don't have ultimate proofs that there is no god or souls. So it's as much speculative as someone who claims  there is some god.

I'm not saying that we should believe in a god or anything like that. I'm just saying that atheists don't have ultimate proofs that there is no god or souls. So it's as much speculative as someone who claims  there is some god.


Yeah, like I said, it's a waste of time to worry about such things. PS3 is wasting time too, but at least it is fun (if not to troll people, when you start losing).

Something so huge and fundamentally different from us that we have yet to discover it out of our own carboncenterism.

You bashed faith earlier, and yet you are banking on the idea that we will find your personal flavor of God.


I'm not saying that we should believe in a god or anything like that. I'm just saying that atheists don't have ultimate proofs that there is no god or souls. So it's as much speculative as someone who claims  there is some god.


Yeah, like I said, it's a waste of time to worry about such things. PS3 is wasting time too, but at least it is fun (if not to troll people, when you start losing).

Something so huge and fundamentally different from us that we have yet to discover it out of our own carboncenterism.

You bashed faith earlier, and yet you are banking on the idea that we will find your personal flavor of God.



I have no flavor of god. Nothing I said could be construed as me banking on anything. I do not believe this creature exists. I simply challenge the notion if there is one, it would be something unknowable. Why do you make that assumption?

We have no proof at all of the physical realm.  I'm more interested in what is knowably real (the mind/consciousness) than in what is clearly illusory, however perfectly it might represent what may or may not be "out there".

Though, of course, I live day to day as if this physical reality were real.  It's more fun that way : )

The question is not so much whether or not the physical world is real, as it is self-evident that it exists in some sense, but what the physical world is.  The same could be said of God, neither of these questions are addressed adequately by either atheists or theists in the majority.  Both parties attach an absolute status to a relative concept, a personal creator God on the one hand and matter on the other.  

Firstly, regarding matter, for all practical purposes the majority of people who declare themselves as either atheists or agnostics believe that matter is an absolute substance, that its existence is self-sufficient and that nothing immaterial exists.  This belief is, on reflection, as much a matter of faith as theism, as there is no evidence to support such a claim, and in fact even modern science has brought it into doubt, which relates to the original question.  When one loses the concept of a metaphysical absolute, a function fulfilled, somewhat inadequately, by the Christian God, the temptation is to substitute matter for God, however this is an error which has been pointed out by numerous people on this site.  Metaphysically speaking, matter is not so hard to define, it is simply a substance which manifests the interaction of patterns and laws inherent in Reality.  The actual nature of the substance is somewhat mysterious, this is what has been shown by quantum physics.  

This brings us back to the main question, I don't think quantum physics is likely to convince anyone of the existence is a personal creator God, however it will hopefully lead most intelligent thinkers to re-evaluate the idea that matter and the world of matter is anything more than a transitory expression of possibilities which transcend their material manifestations.  This may also lead to a reconsideration of the nature of consciousness, which, in this light is something clearly more profound than what the atheists make of it.  Consciousness and being are inextricably linked and this is the mystery that lies at the heart of existence, a mystery which is automatically bypassed by the dogmas which govern both theism and atheism.

Christianity for its part has lost its inward and contemplative dimension and therefore its true intellectual life and therefore cannot really engage in any discussion without simply repeating age-old dogmas without understanding their profound meanings.  If atheism is proven to be false beyond doubt it is still unlikely to convince many of the absurd claims of most Christians.


"the fundamental truth that there is no God, no soul, no nothing." How can you be so sure about that? Maybe you're right but what is the proofs of that? To my knowledge, there is no evidences in science about it.  If you can't back it  up with proofs, your argument have the same weight of someone who believes in God.



Right. So let's believe in holy men in the sky and our personal version of an afterlife. That will make the uncertainty go away.



I'm not saying that we should believe in a god or anything like that. I'm just saying that atheists don't have ultimate proofs that there is no god or souls. So it's as much speculative as someone who claims  there is some god.


Not at all. The reasonable doubt standard applies. There is absolutely no evidence anything exists at all beyond a life form that evolved naturally in a natural universe that possesses a brain that invents these things to find order in the world. All the evidence points to that. Every single shred.

A "personal creator God"? What manner of thing is that?
You must be referring to the Christian idea.
I find the idea of God having any kind of personality, far beyond the possible.
I see God as the sum of all probabilities. As well as the sum of all possibilities.
The sum total, in fact, of all that exists, with all that exists being part of the whole consciousness.
People argue about 'purpose'; I have no idea why.
To me, the purpose is too obvious to notice.
I suppose that is why so few notice it.
The purpose of all that manifests potential consciousness is to manifest consciousness.
To be conscious.
Hard to see how that would be such a stretch, for so many, but it is, apparently.
People generally either believe, or not, based upon their emotional response to the word 'God'.
If it is good, they believe, if not, then they don't. End of story.
But the truth, of course, is far simpler than that.
When one becomes conscious of living, one becomes conscious of living.
That, in sum, is God Consciousness.
I can only conclude that almost nobody has even realized that they live.
Perhaps, they actually don't!