Sacramentum

[More Celt Than Sassenach]

if a group says something that has a good message but the music is lacking is like listening to someone telling you something insightful except he has a strong Asian
accent and he has sever lung cancer, the message is there but find someone you like to listen to

[Annihilaytorr]

While I think that an album does need repeated listens before it can be fully digested, I don't think character attacks based on not liking Sacramentum are warranted either - no one likes every band positively reviewed in the DLA (not the staff here, no one) and not everyone is going to like every band in some dude's best ever list. That is not an appeal to musical democracy or "different strokes" populism; it is a realization that some people are going to disagree even if they have the same interests, values, education and intelligence on some issue.

I am a bit bias though, because I haven't heard enough of this band to fully judge them, and what I did hear didn't catch my ear, but if someone didn't like Slayer or Morbid Angel, we might have a problem.

[Walt]

I only recently realized that the band employs flange type distortion on Far Away From The Sun. Pherhaps this is partly how they acheive their ambient guitar sound. Having two or more guitars with each flange effect starting at a different counteractive pitch results in a hazy drone without a net change in flange pitch. Thoughts?

 

[Stranger]

Consecutively, you have stated:


And:


So, if the value of art originates in the individual, why is the second case automatically "not a masterpiece?"  You have made an assumption about implicit value and applied it externally, which is the very thing you seem to be rallying against in the first quote.

The second quote of mine there does not say that it isn't automatically a masterpiece. I thought that it would have been obvious that someone else does consider it a masterpiece if it happens to end up in the museum of modern art.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[kontinual]

The second quote of mine there does not say that it isn't automatically a masterpiece. I thought that it would have been obvious that someone else does consider it a masterpiece if it happens to end up in the museum of modern art.

Hope that clears it up for you.

But what makes it a "masterpiece"?  The fact that someone, anywhere, has declared it so?  I picked out the second quote because you seemed skeptical that what you were describing could have any value, but if you are judging art with a strictly solipsist viewpoint there would be no way to make what seemed to be a judgment of some kind of innate worth.  

[Stranger]

Help a brother out here, Stranger:



Which is it?

And this:
 In this case, my statement to this poster in question is incredibly sensible. He downloads the album, and after one listen, deletes it out of hand, because he didn't "get it" the first time around. Obviously, he hasn't the patience to attempt to appreciate what others are trying to tell him about the album, either because of his own delusion ("Great art should be immediately explicable and understandable to anyone, so why am I not getting it? Obviously, these knobjockeys at ANUS.com are full of it") or his own relatavistic inability ("What makes this album so great compared to something I already enjoy, like Storm of The Light's Bane? I've listened to it now at least five times, and I don't see any of the enjoyment I get out of that album. I guess it's all subjective.") to understand that some things in this world that influence our daily lives are in fact objectively grounded in their importance, regardless of whether or not the perceiver perceives it.

Well, let's look at my entire quote, not just half of a sentence  that you quote of me:

"I agree that it takes many listenings to understand an album, but this thinking also allows one to argue that any album is great, if only listened to enough times to find its, "genius", or what have you."

And now my other statement that you quoted:

"What I am trying to show is that there is no need to tell someone that they need to listen more to an album to finally understand it. Yes, listening to an album many times will reveal more to a listener, but whether it registers to this person to mean what is apparently, "supposed" to be understood is entirely out of the hands of the art, but solely on the listener."

I don't see a contradiction here. The first quote clearly says that if one doesn't understand an album at first, that they need to listen to the album longer to understand it, giving room for any band to claim that their music is great, and that you only need to listen to it more.

The second quote says the same as the first, but expands on it and explains why telling someone to listen to an album more to understand it doesn't ALWAYS make sense. This is the reason why I brought up the retard and quantum physics example.

If you were assigned to teach a retard quantum physics, would you tell him to re-read a book on the subject until he/she understood it? How much money would you wager against me when I bet you that it will never understand it?

For some people, it does make sense to tell them that giving an album more time may begin the process of understanding for this person. But it's not always the case.

And if someone doesn't understand Sacramentum, then that only affects the individual, not the worth and value of that piece of art.

[Stranger]

But what makes it a "masterpiece"?  The fact that someone, anywhere, has declared it so?  I picked out the second quote because you seemed skeptical that what you were describing could have any value, but if you are judging art with a strictly solipsist viewpoint there would be no way to make what seemed to be a judgment of some kind of innate worth.  

If I don't consider something a masterpiece, but someone else does, then I obviously don't know what made it a masterpiece for that person. If I had viewed the object in the same perspective that someone who claimed it a masterpiece did, then I wouldn't ask the question to begin with.

[kontinual]

And if someone doesn't understand Sacramentum, then that only affects the individual, not the worth and value of that piece of art.

I asked questions of you because it seemed you were simulataneously denying and relying upon the notion of inherent value.  I think I understand better with the quote above...thanks.

[More Celt Than Sassenach]

yes your previous post cleared a lot up for me as well, reading your first few posts i thought you were using individual values to support your but at the same time denouncing it

"If I don't consider something a masterpiece, but someone else does, then I obviously don't know what made it a masterpiece for that person. If I had viewed the object in the same perspective that someone who claimed it a masterpiece did, then I wouldn't ask the question to begin with."

i think i might have to take that piece of information on board

[death metal black metal]

I still consider the first EP and album from this band to be superior to most of black metal. It's beautiful, transcendent music.

[Euronymous]

I still consider the first EP and album from this band to be superior to most of black metal. It's beautiful, transcendent music.

true: I find albums 12, 14, 15 from the best ever list to be the weaker ones, but if you remove that ones you find it's not easy to choose 3 better albums to replace them (without repeating bands)

[Euronymous]

I forgot: I have the same problem Hyvolgen has with the sound of this album; it doesn't help at all to enjoy it, at least to my taste. The first few listens were deceptive too

I say it's weaker than others from the list, and this album (Vikingligr Veldi too, but less) tends to bore me a bit sometimes, not allways. However it's pretty brilliant in mos of its parts and it's way better than Storm of the light's bane (for those who make the comparison).

...making use of a subtle layering of instruments that is both echoing and dense at the same time, while still leaving each distinctly audible). Flowing, labyrinthine melodies with a distinctly classical turn are the order of the day, and this sense is heightened by Sacramentum's frequent use of polyphony and counterpoint (both between guitar lines and between guitar and bass)...

 

due to this some parts of some songs are truly brilliant and amazing.

[IIIIII]

I'm listening to Finis Malorum (my favourite recording by the band) right now, and it strikes me that, while this music is very good, it's just a little bit too one dimensional emotionally, in that every song has that same slightly melancholy yet triumphant feeling, which becomes wearing after a while. There's not enough uncertainty or darkness in the music - it's almost saccharine, perhaps even "poppy", which keeps it from being truly first class black metal.

[born for banning]

Iwhile this music is very good, it's just a little bit too one dimensional emotionally, in that every song has that same slightly melancholy yet triumphant feeling, which becomes wearing after a while. There's not enough uncertainty or darkness in the music

This is true when you speak of the general aesthetic, but each song goes in a different direction, and so this isn't the end-all of Sacramentum. They write in a mood, and within that there are moods, but they're subtler than most (even Burzum, especially Burzum).

[Woodland_Art]

"Storm of the Light's Bane" always gets compared with "Far Away From the Sun".  People always slag Sacramentum as some second rate rip-off.  The fact is that the only connection they shared was a guitarist and an album artist.  "Far Away..." is much more refined and complex than the rock/pop tendencies and structures of "Storm...".  I really see no comparison between the albums.  There is a greater connection between "Far Away From the Sun" and VINTERLAND's "Welcome My Last Chapter".  Both have very blurred but clear cavernous soundscapes.  I always picture the chords and melodies as waves of a great, clear ocean that lets me drift over chaotic motion and see an obscured sight through the surface - thoughts of mystery as to what is beneath the obvious feeling I become so immersed in.  Few albums can do that.  "Far Away From the Sun" can.