Alternate paths

[Conservationist]

If more of metal had embraced the ideals of the DLA, metal would not be such a burnout right now.

[Whisper]

Although i acknowledge that this statement is there merely to stimulate discussion, let's look at the facts here. Of all the bands that I know of that are even remotely DLA affiliated (Into Oblivion, Averse Sefira, Wulfgravf, many other "bedroom" recordings by (ex-)users) nothing of outstanding quality has ever been released. Into Oblivions has an appreciable approach, yet they fail to make something truly majestic out of it. Averse Sefira is competent, sure, but I have found that they don't have much to offer beyond this competence; they pale in comparison with the top-tier stuff. Wulfgravf and the bedroom projects showcase an admirable array of neat ideas without managing to create something truly worthwhile. We must remember that the creation of the several masterpieces of the 80's and 90's were largely done out of natural impulses and an interest towards the more "heavy" aspects of existence, rather than a set of ideals or artistic principles. It can be thoroughly supported that genius in metal is mostly accidental.

On a theoretical level however, it could be said that this statement is almost irrefutably true. Embracing the values upheld by the DLA (quantity > quality, composition just as or even more important than aesthetics, Philosophy in art etc.), would equate with artists being more wary and inclined to go in-depth with their work, most probably eliminating the contemporarily persisting trends of laziness and superficiality. These values would also most likely alienate the masses, thus forcing them to turn elsewhere for their entertainment.

The above could be expanded upon to a great degree, but this is all that I can contribute as of now.

[Faustian]

On a theoretical level however, it could be said that this statement is almost irrefutably true. Embracing the values upheld by the DLA (quantity > quality, composition just as or even more important than aesthetics, Philosophy in art etc.), would equate with artists being more wary and inclined to go in-depth with their work, most probably eliminating the contemporarily persisting trends of laziness and superficiality. These values would also most likely alienate the masses, thus forcing them to turn elsewhere for their entertainment.

The above could be expanded upon to a great degree, but this is all that I can contribute as of now.

The problem that lies with the theoretical; there is a disconnect between what otherwise intelligent people know they should, or could do, and what they actually do. We are uninspired.

I also find Averse Sefira to be one of the last great bands in Black Metal.

[Whisper]

On a theoretical level however, it could be said that this statement is almost irrefutably true. Embracing the values upheld by the DLA (quantity > quality, composition just as or even more important than aesthetics, Philosophy in art etc.), would equate with artists being more wary and inclined to go in-depth with their work, most probably eliminating the contemporarily persisting trends of laziness and superficiality. These values would also most likely alienate the masses, thus forcing them to turn elsewhere for their entertainment.

The above could be expanded upon to a great degree, but this is all that I can contribute as of now.

The problem that lies with the theoretical; there is a disconnect between what otherwise intelligent people know they should, or could do, and what they actually do. We are uninspired.

I also find Averse Sefira to be one of the last great bands in Black Metal.

Indeed. I believe the fault mainly lies with current social structures and values which fail to demand the best out of the constituent particles and who demote intelligence to mere armchair posturing. Or perhaps the blame is to be set upon self-inflicted trends in intellectual circles that have persisted for a long time now? Anyhow, it is clear that an enormous chasm exists between the theoretical and the practical, while in fact these two should co-exist in a ying-yang sort of way. Also, this discussion is rendered mostly pointless in light of current values upheld by Metal-related social circles. To get the Metal community to accept the DLA (which, by the way and in case you haven't noticed, does not go by appreciated with most Metal fans) is to witness enormous changes in the internal chemistry of said community. Thus, conclusively, in order to alter the way Metal artists and the surrounding fanbase view this artistic format, we need to look deep into and perhaps change society - and the values it champions - as a whole.

[aquarius]

Although i acknowledge that this statement is there merely to stimulate discussion, let's look at the facts here. Of all the bands that I know of that are even remotely DLA affiliated (Into Oblivion, Averse Sefira, Wulfgravf, many other "bedroom" recordings by (ex-)users) nothing of outstanding quality has ever been released. Into Oblivions has an appreciable approach, yet they fail to make something truly majestic out of it. Averse Sefira is competent, sure, but I have found that they don't have much to offer beyond this competence; they pale in comparison with the top-tier stuff. Wulfgravf and the bedroom projects showcase an admirable array of neat ideas without managing to create something truly worthwhile. We must remember that the creation of the several masterpieces of the 80's and 90's were largely done out of natural impulses and an interest towards the more "heavy" aspects of existence, rather than a set of ideals or artistic principles. It can be thoroughly supported that genius in metal is mostly accidental.

The way I see it, the ideals of the DLA are not some arbitrary system outside of the best of 80's and 90's metal but are a conscious manifestation of what is largely unconscious in the artist. Even today there are some great artists like Demoncy and Beherit that are totally in league with DLA ideals without ever having made contact with the site.

[loam]

The way I see it, the ideals of the DLA are not some arbitrary system outside of the best of 80's and 90's metal but are a conscious manifestation of what is largely unconscious in the artist. Even today there are some great artists like Demoncy and Beherit that are totally in league with DLA ideals without ever having made contact with the site.

There is an interview with Holocausto on the DLA, but I agree with your point. The concept that art is a communication of profound ideas. The perception of a universe beyond the common, myopic, humanist worldview. These are not "the DLA's ideals," exclusive to this site and without parallel anywhere else. They do seem do be largely lacking, however, in metal these days. In this the OP is entirely accurate.

[analrapist]

Some person mentioned Schubert in another thread and that black metal sounded like the Unifinished Symphony. Well this is true. A lot of the more passionate romantic era classical music sounds like black metal. Death metal sounds to me like architecture, like design and construction of large buildings.

[Examiner]

I never got the Averse Sevira hype. Maybe it is my own ignorance, or my inability to look past the aesthetics superficialities, but I tend to list them with DSO and the like.

[analrapist]

DSO is better than the generic post rock shoe gaze crust punk nowadays false don't entry "Black Metal"

[Jim Necroslaughter]

The thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is the fans' responsibility for the "scene" as well.  We can't just sit back and let the artists do all the work.

[Humanicide]

Averse Sefira is competent, sure, but I have found that they don't have much to offer beyond this competence; they pale in comparison with the top-tier stuff.

Subjective. In my mind, Averse Sefira IS in the top tier, while crap like Angelcorpse or Mysticum shouldn't even be on the front review page.

If people become more involved in the scene, like Jim mentioned, and stop treating it as just a social gathering (not saying this shouldn't be an aspect of the metal culture), then perhaps the health of metal overall will improve.

As has been mentioned on this site before, innovation of form in metal is largely over. Don't expect the next Burzum or Dismember, because if you do you will be highly disappointed. Take off the rose colored glasses in constant praise of the past and appreciate innovations in content. We cannot dwell on the past; we must use the knowledge gained to move forward.

[Conservationist]

In my mind, Averse Sefira IS in the top tier, while crap like Angelcorpse or Mysticum shouldn't even be on the front review page.

What is top-tier?

In black metal, to my mind, that's the pantheon: Immortal, Enslaved, Graveland, Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Emperor, Darkthrone, Beherit.

Right now, there's a bit of compression in that in black metal we've got two basic groups: the old stuff that was good, and some new stuff that roughly meets its standards, and the new stuff which all blows.

Which definition of top-tier are you using?

[Humanicide]

What is top-tier?

In black metal, to my mind, that's the pantheon: Immortal, Enslaved, Graveland, Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Emperor, Darkthrone, Beherit.

Right now, there's a bit of compression in that in black metal we've got two basic groups: the old stuff that was good, and some new stuff that roughly meets its standards, and the new stuff which all blows.

Which definition of top-tier are you using?

I'm talking about top tier in terms of top 1-2% of quality in the genre. I'd happily put Averse Sefira's work among those of Burzum and Immortal, but I am sure that many would not agree. However they're in my top tier.

Insofar as Anus' top tier, I don't see why Averse wouldn't get put in; they seem to get a lot of praise around here.

[Conservationist]

I'm talking about top tier in terms of top 1-2% of quality in the genre. I'd happily put Averse Sefira's work among those of Burzum and Immortal, but I am sure that many would not agree. However they're in my top tier.

Averse Sefira, Dawn, Samael, Rotting Christ.

Not quite first-tier, perhaps, but very goddamn good.

In other words: very little is as good as Pure Holocaust.

[Humanicide]

Averse Sefira, Dawn, Samael, Rotting Christ.

Not quite first-tier, perhaps, but very goddamn good.

In other words: very little is as good as Pure Holocaust.

Of course. If Pure Holocaust is a 100, then the other bands you mentioned are 95-98. (though I am personally not much of a Samael fan I can definitely say they forged a sound all their own on their early works, and can see why many praise them)

No need to fault the As in favor of the A+s. I think what people forget around here sometimes is that there IS some leeway in the determination of these rankings. The one common thing is that it's all GOOD, however many varieties of good there are.