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Plato would have been a metalhead

Plato would have been a metalhead
January 01, 2007, 05:12:52 AM
"I don't know all the musical modes. Just leave me the mode that would suitably imitate the tone and rhythm of a courageous person who is active in battle or doing other violent deeds, or who is failing and facing wounds, death or some other misfourtune, and who, in all these circumstances, is fighting off his fate steadily with self-control... Leave me, then, these two modes, which will best imitate the violent or voluntary tones of voice of those who are moderate and courageous, whether in good fortune or in bad" (Republic 399a-c).

I can only think of one modern equivalent of what he is talking about here. Apparently, the ideal state needs some kind of music akin to metal to motivate citizens towards "courage" in good and bad circumstances as he puts it.

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 01, 2007, 02:41:37 PM
i don't think Plato would have been a Hessian, i think Hessians would be philosophers, musically and in ideology metal presents nothing new at all to the world, it simple brings forth passion long since lost, hence why metal ideology agrees so heavily with all the great romantics and all greats of what are considered the classic times of man

then it would be safe to assume Nietzsche would be a Hessian but he mightn't be able to care less about the aesthetic so instead we would consider ourselves of his mode of thought (especially since he predates us)  

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 02, 2007, 12:11:10 AM
anything Nietzsche related, read any of his works and you begin to see the parallel to metal, many romantic writers share the same view, its difficult to say in short because its simply trying to find the real nature of reality which takes it down many (and sometimes conflicting) paths  

i guess you could say its self assertive music, encourages the ideas of natural selection, revokes most of the beliefs shared by the public in terms of the naturing element, everyone is equal sort of thing is first to go. It believes death is not to be feared for no man knows what lies beyond its gates
(this is the idea behind death metal) and they don't wish to hide behind notions of an afterlife because it makes death seem not so bad despite the fact they don't know what will happen to them when they die.

It tries to see through the lunacy of modern politics and our modern, plastic and flawed world. It sees that with everyone encouraged to do what brings them pleasure no one will want to give up there high powered lifestyle that is destroying the planet and making our population grow to fast, within a few hundred years we will run out of resources to cope with the massive population (which seems to increasing by 1 billion every 30 years of so) who all want plasma screen tvs

it glorifies warriors, ancient civilizations (because they were stable unlike our modern world but in the end were undone by modern modes of thought)

it belives nature should be preserved and revered

i no i have missed many points and havnt covered the points i made very well

if you have the time heres a much more complete version of what i said

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/philosophy/



Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 02, 2007, 12:43:13 AM
thats a much more difficult thing to explain, it would be best to start with no band covers all those things, specific genres have certain topics most common within them and each band then takes a more specific view

with its opposition to modern life its easy to find in speed metal and heavy metal because the lyrics say exactly what it means and those genres (speed metal in particular) are politically motivated where grindcore seems to focus on humanitarianism more

the love of nature mostly came around because .1) its practical, we need it to survive and as such needs to be respected and .2) much black metal takes the Norse and uses as focus of the lyrics, these religions heavily worship and revere nature and view them as being equal with it not above it, there is more to it then that but theres no point in me force feeding it down your throat, you will have to go from there and forge your own interpretations

how id endorses the survival of the fittest is through its chosen aesthetic, it sounds harsh, mean, cruel and bestial, its not music for everybody,
this sound fits into the idea of the natural world, unforgiving, wild, difficult. Many of these ideas are expressed within again black metal

the idea about death is exactly as i said it, death metal does exactly that, gore drenched lyrics are to remind people of their mortality and to break through there illusion of they will exist forever. I really cant give you much more help then that because im not an expert on death metal (on this sites top 15 list of best albums ive only got about 4 of them)

when Satan is used in metal he is metaphor(unless your listen to people who think the people they listened to as kids used it literally then they do),  he represents someone who has broken away from a dogmatic way of life and was strong enough to forge his own path and make himself a world that he could call his own and where he was not trapped by beliefs he does not believe and isn't allowed to go against, this is the self assertiveness i talked of earlier

also battle is sung about because it shows courage, strength, virtue, honor. it reminds people death is real, it shows what man was meant to be, not the lazy sloth it has become, it shows a time when people held respect for nature (if they are talking about ancient warriors) and promotes civilizations that created the greatest thinkers and writes who were ever born  

common someone, give me some help, this is a lot of typing for one person you know

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 02, 2007, 01:22:08 AM
It was a good try. Unfortunately the only musical basis you gave me was the "harsh, wild sound" which can also exist in hardcore, drill n bass, drone, ambient and grunge. I'm not so interested in lyrics because if Britney Spears lyrics were pasted on top of Immortal i'd still listen to it without knowing any different.

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 02, 2007, 08:11:08 AM
thats like asking why does sad music sound sad, it is incredible difficult to describe why metal sings about what metal does using musical terminology, i would be resorted to describing things like "feelings" and "vibe" which are just far to tangible

but i can say this, certain kinds of music suite certain topics, a song about your girlfriend dumping you (like on much new "punk") has a different sound from a song about the holocaust (taken from the Jews perspective), this is because the song about the holocaust has far more gravity to it, its about the deaths of tens of millions (unless your a holocaust denier) and the destruction of an entire people where the other was just a trivial small scale event which the victim(?) will recover very quickly over. The latter will sound much bigger and far more tragic then the first for the simple fact a Tchaikovsky
style piece does not suite the one about the girlfriend because its just to big and sorrowful for that  

Metal sounds big, grand, Wagnerian, its also serious and as i said before harsh and cruel. just looking at those words and linking them together, it sounds very cruel. big and grand and look at the topics it invokes, songs about war (possible the greatest human experience), songs about death and the unpredictability of life could be present in the chromatic scale it uses which if used right sounds mean and chaotic, it also could represent a state of lawlessnesses and total submission to nature (which is by nature cruel and unforgiving)

to explain why the chromatic scale sound chaotic i can only say because of the large level of dissonance in it but to explain why that sounds chaotic you might as well ask me why does the major scale sound happy, i could point out the single note that defines a major scale and thats the note that creates that happy bright feeling but i couldn't explain why it gives humans that feeling. So in essence you gave me an almost impossible question but there are some things i can tug at

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 02, 2007, 09:02:59 AM
mayhem-to-carnage,

I am sure that if you went and explained that to someone like Mike Torrao of Possessed, he wouldn't understand shit. I see what you are saying, and although i feel that too many people here follow the dogmatic rules of Vijay, i agree with the entire "metal & Nietzche" image...however i might say that Death Metal at it's earliest form with Seven Churches is actually regarded as a piece of shit album from the bandmembers themselves. Although that very same philosophy you speak about, realistic values held higher than something divine, and the eradication of religion especially the Judoe-Christian movement, are all very much prominent in later death metal which was influenced by bands such as Possessed and Venom.

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 03, 2007, 01:48:29 PM
but metal isn't a static notion, it changes and evolves, otherwise by your logic any idea that black sabbath didn't express wouldn't be a proper metal idea

so if later (quality) death metal bands have a heavily anti-Christian notion that is then inducted into metal and is made another path with which to find reality, other wise we would only think what black sabbath song about as metal ideas

STS

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 04, 2007, 05:19:11 PM
Very good response to my (admin-deleted) inquiry, Mayhem-to-Carnage. We're basically in agreement, but in my estimation we should be more general when referring to philosophy; and careful too since “Metal Philosophy” is unspecific and ambiguous.

Perhaps we can speak of the philosophy channeled within the higher echelon of the genre instead, which by no uncertain terms are comprised of eternal values pre-dating metal itself and relevant to Nietzschian & Platonic philosophy.

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 05, 2007, 11:34:45 AM
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“Metal Philosophy” is unspecific and ambiguous.

Perhaps we can speak of the philosophy channeled within the higher echelon


This is redundant. Of course you speak of the best. Why waste time with the rest? Metal philosophy is clear as day for those who pay attention to the non-loser bands.

STS

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 05, 2007, 12:43:48 PM
I hope you’re not planning to follow me around now based on our dispute elsewhere. Your behavior is very telling.

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Metal philosophy is clear as day for those who pay attention to the non-loser bands.


Philosophy is clear as day to me when listening to great bands, not something called "Metal Philosophy". That is a local term, not mine.

You're argument is assuming that these philosophies are somehow a uniquely rigid concept arising in and inherent in metal itself instead of them being eternal values channeled within it. I wasn't aware of these qualities being metal in origin, I'd like to think that they are essential building blocks for the best of it instead.

Born For Banning, I won’t hold this against you, but logically, you sound inexperienced and confused. I would point you towards offline philosophical research & discourse as a solution.






Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 05, 2007, 12:53:26 PM
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You're argument is assuming that these philosophies are somehow a uniquely rigid concept arising in and inherent in metal itself instead of them being eternal values channeled within it.


No, it isn't. You're constructing the usual straw man to avoid debating the obvious: there is a philosophy to metal.

And your response is so pompous, so hipster. I hope "m'y" arguments aren't so degraded.



STS

Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 05, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
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there is a philosophy to metal.


No kidding. I think we would both agree on this, but we're arriving at this conclusion differently hence our disagreement.  

You're assuming that there is an inherent "Metal Philosophy", I am implying that there is a Philosophy or "eternal values" channeled within it. The latter denotes that metal's philosophical principles are not inborn, but that Nietzschian or Platonic philosophy (for example) is what builds the genre.  Metal has not created new values for itself, rather it has collected values in a meaningful way in which has given it the character we are trying to underscore here.

Hence, what you refer to as a "Metal Philosophy" is something I see as a set of pre-existing ideas addressed much earlier.


Re: Plato would have been a metalhead
January 05, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
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You're assuming that there is an inherent "Metal Philosophy", I am implying that there is a Philosophy or "eternal values" channeled within it.


This isn't a big confusion. Metal has a philosophy, and it also coincides with values channelled eternally within it.