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Lack of theoretical rigor in metal

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 08:32:02 AM
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Most jazz isn't very complicated, even big band jazz can be simple but can be very complex, if you will have seen the theory for jazz it is often far more difficult to grasp then classical, classical theory is very predictable but jazz has enough dissonance within it to make learning and applying it much more difficult  


This doesn't make any sense. Jazz theory descends entirely from classical theory, and there's nothing in jazz that classical theory doesn't explain. And if you are comparing a forty minute symphony of many interlocking themes to the tedious jamming of jazz bands, I think you need mental help.

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 10:18:29 AM
but you must remember jazz theory has its own conventions which are harder to grasp then classical conventions

but you would be speaking of more complicated forms of classical, i agree classical can be more complicated then classical but jazz is probably the second most complicated style of music in the world, far above anything metal has ever attempted

just as metal and classical have different goals classical and jazz have different goals that they both reach through complicated music, but this also means you cant compare them to each though complexity alone, and groups like a big band cant really have jam sessions due to the extremely large amount of people participating in it, the closest thing would be improvised solos which they have in classical  

and when i said jazz could be more complicated then jazz i was referring to something like finlandia or hall of the mountain king

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 12:48:54 PM
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but you must remember jazz theory has its own conventions which are harder to grasp then classical conventions


This is a giant load of crap. If anything jazz theory is far more simplistic than classical theory, of which it is a subset. Maybe you're talking about technique? Even there you're not making sense. Jazz like everything else which was made to be a product is a giant swindle and if you can't see it I am so sorry.

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 02:07:12 PM
chord sequences are and key changes are far more difficult to execute in jazz then classical because classical chord sequences are very obvious and following almost religiously the I IV V I patter, or I V I or I VI V I or I IV VI V, jazz will use almost every single chord sequence imaginable

key changes in classical are very simple as well, if you are in this key, you change to this one is how most composers are taught, jazz is much more open to interpretation

Also its use of motivic development is mostly much more sophisticated then that of classical music

big band jazz can have several melodies working in counter point or in a fuge and use ingenious motivic development can create something really complicated

in fact i know this amazing jazz saxophone player who always remarks on how boring my teachers theory is (who is a baroque specialists)

also big band jazz is extremely structured, its nothing like a jam session (which is prominent in other styles of jazz)

the only reason i said classical is more complicated is because i have never seen any kind of music as complicated as Bach's complex pieces

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 06:04:00 PM
A lot of jazz is sophisticated in technique (although most of it recycles the basic 12-bar blues formula with improvisation over it), but this complexity of form is rarely matched by a complexity of concept or spirit - and this is where it fares badly in comparison to music in the 'classical' tradition.

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 09, 2007, 06:19:28 PM
yes i think in terms of art (at least as we see it) it falls behind but musically its up at the top end

Although i don't think so about all jazz, i think some has a real quality which i really enjoy, perhaps not to the extent the saint john passion does but still very enjoyable (and i mean more then just musically)

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 12, 2007, 08:06:28 AM
Feel free to discount this, I am untrained save for my own delvings into musicianship.

But perhaps musicians need to stop thinking of music as music. Using theory is desirable to introduce new properties into a piece.

However idolatry will often shelve said piece too close to its antecendants. Of course nothing is going to be totally original so if i may be so bold, i suggest the Richard D. James method.

An understanding of the patterns and mathemtical formulas used in music, as just that patterns and mathematical formulas. Once they were understood music would of course be by ear, however it would include some basis of theory to go on.

there are of course problems with this method as well.


Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 12, 2007, 11:50:58 AM
ive said this before but when you know theory you don't write a note and look in a book to see if it works, you write exactly the same as a person who knows no theory. The only difference is your music has real music theory built into it, not because you intended it (or at least some of the time) but because it has become second nature to you, the only time you look at a book for help is when you need new ideas for your piece to develop

If your music is to close to the works of others it has nothing to do with theory

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 12, 2007, 12:56:29 PM
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ive said this before but when you know theory you don't write a note and look in a book to see if it works, you write exactly the same as a person who knows no theory. The only difference is your music has real music theory built into it, not because you intended it (or at least some of the time) but because it has become second nature to you, the only time you look at a book for help is when you need new ideas for your piece to develop

If you music is to close to the works of others it has nothing to do with theory



True enough, a set of rules alone is not enough to ensure carbon copy musicians.

However, in learning that theory those musicians study other musicians. That is what is somewhat worrying.

breaking theory down to its mathematics essentialy ensures that it is faceless. A clean slate if you will.

the student does not know that: "so and so" is responsible for this or that. The student knows only that A and B make C. After which time the student is free to listen to any works they may wish to listen to.

They will undoubtably hear A, B and C in these works. At which point they will recognize it as such, they will be forced to evaluate the quality of the use of A, B and C on the spot as per their individual perspective.

It is this use of perspective which will allow the student to dream up ideas to convey the emotions of their piece as they wish.

Where all theory as theory is equal, we know for a fact that it is used in different situations better by some than others.

I see this method as a way of connecting emotions/ideas rather than composers/artists to aspects of theory. resulting in (hopefully) a more emotional song writing process.

Re: Lack of theoretical rigor in metal
January 12, 2007, 02:01:32 PM
you can state it as A and B ect but even if you yourself give examples on a quick tune on a piano it may not make them truly aware of the usefulness of such ideas, when we study certain ideas my teacher will play a fragment from Handel or Beethoven because they employ said technique the best and as such give me practical use of that idea

so looking at composers is very good and i find it to be more helpful then to look at everything in a similar manner to maths

and also not all kinds of music try to be emotional (at least not to the extent of romantic or 20th century classical music), some such as baroque focus entirely on theory to create works and emotions and feelings fall in second, this is not bad or good, it just allows a different type of piece to take place