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Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?

Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
June 29, 2012, 08:31:21 AM
I've been on this site for about a year now and my taste has moved away  from all the metal I used to listen to. Now I listen to Classical, Classic rock, Kraftwerk etc.

How does a site take from saying that all values are meaningless (Nihilism) to saying that one form of art is objectively better than another. (for example Romantic Classical compared to Power Metal). It would seem that from active nihilism we would have to say that nothing is objectively better. However, with more study and focus, one can derive more aesthetic pleasure from one composer compared to another. If this were true, then how could one say that an album of popular music is bad? One person may study it and listen to extensively and gain a lot of meaning from it (such as the metal newcomer listening to Pink Frothy AIDS). Is it because it would sound boring/bad to the trained ear? Is there something beyond the self enjoyment one can gain from music and there is something in the music itself? Am I missing the point?

Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
June 29, 2012, 11:49:21 AM
All value is the mere product of a conscious mind. In and of themselves they have no value. YET value has real world consequences. Value influence form. For this reason, art can be measured objectively because it is an expression of value. Or that the attribution of value to art produces consequences in the real.world. IE the effect of the art on the listener.


Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
June 29, 2012, 12:08:06 PM
You may want to read this.

Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
June 30, 2012, 08:01:45 PM
All right, this is the moment for me to give my opinion on this. I wanted to make a topic but I'll take the opportunity here.

I differ greatly of the opinion's of this site, because in my current state I can not see much difference between what is considered bad and good metal. I can actually see a difference, but I'm sad to say get metal more when high on weed. Metal is actually a tough stuff to get into: I don't know if it's just me, but the music is not simple. It's not just not simple, it is hard. I mean, stuff goes on that if you do not remember what went on  before you're lost. Only stuff that's like this is classical, know what I'm saying (I'm south american so when speaking in english we tend to adopt the way of talking of our opressed african american brothers). And I know when I really get what the music is saying why some metal is just superior.

As for rock, there is stuff in rock on the same level with metal, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QVlcV-lrwXM this is pure gold

But in most days I have a pretty tolerant selection of music, I enjoy everything, even pop. Linkin Park's first album, I like it. Some songs by system of a down. Some rap for the mad beatz know what I'm saying?

I just can't understand why label some perfectly good music, in its own way and intention, as garbage when it is really just a good, albeit less ambitious, composition, like jazz.

For example, songs below are "good" to me, I mean, they are cute, or beautiful in a way, etc...


I'm sure Ildjarn would like those songs, judging by his text in ildjarn is dead. I feel the same way

Now I found out when there are songs mixed with pleasant memories they always win, be what they are. That means when you enjoyed shit like that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXS6D_Ow0-w in a good time of life, when you see it again it's hard not to like.

There are some songs that have something different and by multiple listens they kind of exhale a new scent, associating itself with places, shapes, scents, even colors, and strings. This is not stoner talk but natural human experience: This kan mace you listen to a song real bad, like many times just to get that special "it" place quality like that it transmits. Word.


Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
July 01, 2012, 01:55:42 AM
Blessed is he who finds beauty in anything- but it looks like you're just a hopelessly undiscerning dummy in your 'current state':

Quote from: Zyklon B
'I can not see much difference between what is considered bad and good metal.'
"good" [...], I mean, [...] cute, or beautiful in a way, etc...'
'I enjoy everything'

Ergo: 'everything is good'.

Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
July 05, 2012, 06:57:07 AM
I don't really think everything is at the same level with metal and that all metal is on the same level. I just don't see why bash other forms of music for not being on the same level, when they are great at their own level, you feel me dog?

Know what aamean?

I can certainly pick some of the best of metal of this website, compare with bands that are criticized here (sacramentum x cannibal corpse, burzum x cradle of filth, mayhem x dream theater, darkthrone x etc...) an I can certainly understand why someone would not listen to inferior bands or other types of music. But I think that music must excel in its purpose and that is why we have diversity.

Not to mention this website has mentioned even album art and lyrics as being important parts of the experience. Now consider the negro and his music: How much of it is dependent on the setting of the ambient, the people around it, dancing. Some songs are not separated of the dance, like dance music, some jazz, james brown, etc... You just don't consider james brown standing still. They are encoded in the song itself, the movements. Or you have trippy jazz or other negro manifestation that is inherent to the negro brain, like the album Survival of the Fittest by THE HEADHUNTERS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgmwO9R-qIw .

Rock influenced by jazz like this expresses freedom, the chaotic randomness of the mind and nature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuSKn1F82xM&feature=related  And I know this is kind of mediocre, but it serves a purpose. I can think of a ton of better rock artists than this, btw.

Others have similar encoded reasons, but of catharsis, reflection, emotion, trance states, tranquility, aesthetic beauty, etc.... I totally on board with the theory of different music levels that conservationist exposed here. (the first level keeping a rythmn, then emotion, then conflicting emotions, etc...)

I certainly appreciate rock and it's value, and also jazz, fusions of rock with jazz, etc... But I do not consider it on the same level with the best of metal. But there are certain things which must be expressed in other ways. There are some marvelous rock that express mental states that are very randomic and free. There is lots of great experimental music everywhere, so that saying that one who listen to it is moron or that it is trash is just going to be bad. Peace out, word, my nigga. Chill. Mi casa es su casa, que sera sera homie.

Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
July 09, 2012, 05:03:49 PM
I just want to make it fucking clear that I do not think metal is on the same level as other music like rock, jazz, etc... I was just listening to the song Within by At The Gates and was horrified about the fact that some idiot might think I find the neoclassical music of high quality that is metal is on the same level as Linkin Park, Black Eyed Peas or something. Black Eyed Peas is trash, by the way!

Re: Subjective vs objective? Contradiction?
July 13, 2012, 09:10:22 AM
I can see what you mean but I'm also going in another direction in that I only seek out and enjoy music of the highest level. There simply isn't any room in my life for anything less and even then, there's a ton of high quality material I still don't have time to listen to. Even within the highest echelons there is infinite diversity.