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Metal as college substitute

Metal as college substitute
January 10, 2007, 11:33:55 AM
I've been talking lately to two of my hilarious neighbors in this part of Texas. These guys are hillbilly hippies, meaning they are pleasant to Africans but don't want them in the neighborhood, think Iraq should be punished but don't like GWB, and are otherwise both confused and really balanced. Neither went to college, and they're constantly asking me about what it's like.

One of them grows pot in his backyard between two sheds, and keeps it cured in a big plastic trash can in his garage, so we'll go over there and roll a giant fat one and talk about life. Both of these guys were really into metal. One was an Iron Maiden through Destruction guy, but he fell off when the "cookie monster vocals" came about. The other guy was hardcore into the underground for years and just up and quit one day. The Iron Maiden guy is just too busy to do much except download the latest Iron Maiden album when it comes out every six months.

What they were telling me was that, in this part of Texas in the late 80s and early 90s, it wasn't so easy to go to college. It was expensive and far away, and affirmative action had just ramped up, so it was harder to get in unless your high school grades were pretty good. Neither guy took the SAT or ACT. They're both smart, although maybe not in a book smart way. It's okay, because they're honest. To mayhem-from-carnage, I'd say that I wouldn't ask these guys about philosophy, but I do pay attention to their observations.

The second guy made a quality insight the other day. He said that he had metal instead of college, and then went on to say that he knows a lot of his old "metal brothers" who have moved on but they learned a lot by having bands, running labels, publishing zines, that kind of thing. If you don't go to college, or even if you do, metal is like reality training, he said. I agreed with him in that I've learned a lot from it after I got involved with helping out a few local bands and working with a metal-related website. I wonder if more can't be made of this, since metal as an education sounds more fun than a classroom.

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 10, 2007, 12:36:00 PM
These guys couldn't afford community college? Even if you're poor, you can still go to a small college, and work your way up.

They sound like losers to me.

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 10, 2007, 05:15:49 PM
For me, metal wasn't a subtitute for college, but was ultimately an impetus which gave me direction, and in that, was greater than college could ever be.

Fuck modern forms of education![/i]

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 10, 2007, 07:50:14 PM
yes modern forms of education are flawed by the simple fact there is only a single voice in the room, that of the teachers, if they ask you a question you must give a predetermined answer and no room for any other type of thought but the teachers is an option

We need dialogs to be present in school and learning (much like the ancient Greeks)

STS

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 10, 2007, 08:08:55 PM
Quote
yes modern forms of education are flawed by the simple fact there is only a single voice in the room, that of the teachers, if they ask you a question you must give a predetermined answer and no room for any other type of thought but the teachers is an option

We need dialogs to be present in school and learning (much like the ancient Greeks


That’s pretty much true from my experience as well, but it doesn’t need to be like that; most students will feel obligated to remain silent even when their own personal values are challenged and derided by the instructor or by a prevailing attitude among the students themselves.

I don’t think one needs to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative in a situation like this, but Academia’s authority figures are not used to being challenged by anyone, let alone their students, so it certainly helps to break the ice and provide “better” ideas or answers in place of stupid ones as necessary.

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 05:41:03 AM
Quote
That’s pretty much true from my experience as well, but it doesn’t need to be like that; most students will feel obligated to remain silent even when their own personal values are challenged and derided by the instructor or by a prevailing attitude among the students themselves.


Students learn a lot of crap they don't want to know. The ultimate goal is to get a good grade, so you remain quiet and do your work. This is the better approach than to start arguments with your professor and make your life difficult.

You need to have some ground to stand on before you can apply change. So my advice would be to go to college, get a degree, show that you're legitimate to the world, and others will take you seriously and listen to what you say.

STS

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 07:31:56 AM
Quote

Students learn a lot of crap they don't want to know. The ultimate goal is to get a good grade, so you remain quiet and do your work. This is the better approach than to start arguments with your professor and make your life difficult.

You need to have some ground to stand on before you can apply change. So my advice would be to go to college, get a degree, show that you're legitimate to the world, and others will take you seriously and listen to what you say.


I disagree.

You’re advocating for the easy way out in life by linear activity. If the goal is to transform and transcend then real challenges are necessary, even if they make life difficult for you.

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 12:17:22 PM
Quote

I disagree.

You’re advocating for the easy way out in life by linear activity. If the goal is to transform and transcend then real challenges are necessary, even if they make life difficult for you.


I think you've misunderstood me.

What I meant with what I said is that you need to have credentials to be taken seriously in life.

A bum who has all the answers isn't going to acheive anything because the bum won't have anyone who will listen. If you have proven to society that you are worth listening to, you will have the opportunity to say something many will listen to and you'll then have the chance to affect the world as a result.

This is why the media is so important. What good is saying something if you're never heard? One must capture an audience before one is heard and cause change.

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 12:32:33 PM
but in order to do this you would have to endure the teaching that you want to change, i would rather fight for it while i was there then after

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
Quote
but in order to do this you would have to endure the teaching that you want to change, i would rather fight for it while i was there then after


I'm sorry, but i'm not sure what you mean by this.

What do you mean by, "endure the teaching that you want to change"? Do you mean that you would need to sit through someone teaching you what needs to be changed? Or do you mean that you'd have to sit through something that you don't agree with and want to change?

I don't mean to difficult, but I honestly don't know what you mean.

STS

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 12:56:56 PM
Quote

I think you've misunderstood me.

What I meant with what I said is that you need to have credentials to be taken seriously in life.

A bum who has all the answers isn't going to acheive anything because the bum won't have anyone who will listen. If you have proven to society that you are worth listening to, you will have the opportunity to say something many will listen to and you'll then have the chance to affect the world as a result.

This is why the media is so important. What good is saying something if you're never heard? One must capture an audience before one is heard and cause change.


That still doesn't seem rational to me.

Here’s what I’m trying to get at: Academic instructors are not used to being challenged. This gives them a clear incentive to help spread misinformation or exclude information as it benefits them and their curriculum. Is it important to ‘challenge’ this by underscoring exactly what’s mendacious while providing sound answers in place of stupid ones? I think so, and this is the first step to helping improve “society” as it can benefit others as well.

But in your post, you plainly advocated silent pseudo-consensus as a method for growth & transcendence and here’s where I think your logic is misguided. Silent pseudo-consensus is exactly what is expected in Academia in this case, and it’s exactly what keeps people from moving forward in life.

Society as a whole is not going to listen to something worth far more than individual gratification no matter how many Collegiate degrees you have to your credit. There’s a prevailing attitude of selfishness and egocultism which is helping to sink the collective order of civilization and this is what needs to be checked at it’s root by not working with what’s stupid, but by working with what’s NOT stupid.  So then why not set a good example?

Whether you're a "bum" or a Physicist, working towards these goals provides a far better chance that something better will emerge in the future for human civilization.  ;)

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 01:09:19 PM
Quote

I'm sorry, but i'm not sure what you mean by this.

What do you mean by, "endure the teaching that you want to change"? Do you mean that you would need to sit through someone teaching you what needs to be changed? Or do you mean that you'd have to sit through something that you don't agree with and want to change?

I don't mean to difficult, but I honestly don't know what you mean.


i mean you would have to endure the monotonous style of teaching in order to advocate your ideas of a dialog  

but about 4 months ago a was co-writing a news letter to be read by people attending a conference and the conference was about including technology in teaching to make students learn, during all this there was a seminar where a man was talking about how our schools need to include dialog and approach things much closer to what the Greeks did

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 01:12:31 PM
I don't agree with your method. But that's my opinion. Take it how you will. This is directed to Ragnarok, by the way.

Azazel

Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 04:03:02 PM
Quote

A bum who has all the answers isn't going to acheive anything because the bum won't have anyone who will listen.


I don't disagree. But what about Socrates?



Re: Metal as college substitute
January 11, 2007, 08:11:03 PM
Obviously, metal does teach some pretty deep concepts, but college can help you to learn how to interpret the things that you hear. I never had the experience of an instructor just not listening, or not promoting discussion. Discussions were hoped for at the college I went to, and encouraged. Debates that I brought up in class, my instructors often asked me to do the research and write papers or essays to back my opinions up. This was in Arizona. The problems I used to have in class was that it would be me, one or two other students, and the instructors talking while everybody else watched or took notes because they were too apathetic, too timid etc. to add in their opinions.

I haven't finished school yet, but that was a good way to learn because it was hands on, research was done, and differing opinions and viewpoints flourished. I became unafraid to voice my opinion and to speak my mind, even when I was wrong. Being wrong about something isn't the worst thing in the world, just antother experience to learn from.