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Metal as revolutionary

Metal as revolutionary
January 12, 2007, 10:06:24 PM
The eminient philosopher G.H. Schlebenhirn postulated that there are three types of ideation: revolutionary, counter-revolutionary (formerly "reactionary") and complacent. In his view a revolution wants to radically change an ongoing state of affairs, a counter-revolution wants to retard or destroy an ongoing change in a state of affairs, and complacency means being willing to accept the status quo with minor or no modification.

In this context, metal seems revolutionary at first. After all, it wants to tear down modern society, overthrow the Church, blow up fast food joints and stop morons from ruling the planet. This seems a very revolutionary agenda and one that could quite possibly translate easily to activism including violent revolution.

But then I was thinking some more and was paused by the fact that the Church, moron rule and corporate mass media culture are recent changes to humanity. In this light, maybe metal is not revolutionary but counter-revolutionary. Its goal is to undo the ongoing decline that is brought about by "good" but bad things like the Church, corporate culture, and the like.

I kept on thinking further, and about how the idiocy has taken over for some centuries now, and how metal is a revolution against it that refuses to try to use it against itself. Metal doesn't accept what it is told in the name of "being good." Society gives you all kinds of rules that are there to prevent people being hurt, offended, and so on, but metal throws these rules away because they're chains on the spirit. Metal is about the spirit. So it's not materialist or humanist like society, so it's a revolution.

Finally another option occurred to me. I was reading "The Clash of Civilizations" by Samuel Huntington and in it he talks about "sub-civilizations," or subcultures that own their own land, like if metal had a small city or town for its own living as an organic culture. Huntington correctly notes that the bigger older civilizations have become corrupt and are going to blow up and collapse, causing a fragmentation of populations according to their aims. There will be Christian rightist subcivs, drug user subcivs, Satanic subcivs, and maybe a metal one. Perhaps metal is a path to one of those, and maybe it won't be metal-themed, but Romantic or Spartan.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 12, 2007, 10:46:38 PM
Well as far as the music goes, Metal was definitely revolutionary in the 80s.

But as far the next part about going against the Church....  I think that you could start with Norway and say that since the country was ruled by Vikings, and then over thrown by Christians, this might lead you to believe that going against the Church is counter-revolutionary, but then one might also argue that since the Christians took over Norway, the Church has become the government and the establishment and no matter what, metal would still be revolutionary, because it is going against the dominate culture.

But then in reading rhetoric from the actual members of the scene who took action against the church, it seems that they all have very counter-revolutionary ideas about things like women, races, and pornography, as if trying to restore an older norm from the past.  

I guess it depends on what you believe the modive to be.  

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 13, 2007, 08:44:51 PM
well black metal tries to capture the attitude from hundreds (possible thousands) of years ago, where death metal seems fixated on the romantic period

either way they are older ways of life that have changed (or destroyed) to what we live in now, so metal seems to always try and reverse the clock so it makes sense to call it counter-revolutionary

childrengrinder-br

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 14, 2007, 03:39:13 PM
i guess that punk was a revolutinary form of music, and the thrash metal style add in their music the feeling of anarchy and angry, the best example for this is D.R.I

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 14, 2007, 07:52:02 PM
i always felt punk wanted to go back to a different age as well, my friend (who is a punk) said he would like money to be abolished and a barter system introduced

also everyone would most likely farm (or people like masons, people who make raw materials into clothes or furniture) and as such everyone is producing something someone else needs (unlike items like tvs or ipods) and in doing such everyone is forced to work as a community and live directly off nature meaning large scale pollution cant take place

but since communities would be so small they can think of suitable punishments for crimes committed by each offender and so nobody gets bogged down by who has the better lawyers or technicalities, they get punished for what they did and who they are

This idea sound very counter-revolutionary and even sounds thousands of years old, but i am not sure if this is an idea shared by many punks or just him

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 16, 2007, 12:07:27 AM
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everyone would most likely farm (or people like masons, people who make raw materials into clothes or furniture) and as such everyone is producing something someone else needs (unlike items like tvs or ipods) and in doing such everyone is forced to work as a community and live directly off nature meaning large scale pollution cant take place


It is a good idea, but it eliminates the need for some industry, and the reality of anarchy, which is that not all people are equal and so the things some people do will oppress others. Stupid people are oppressive to smart people, and vice versa. This is why dreamland utopias never happen. You need a pragmatic utopia, based on war and suffering.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 16, 2007, 03:49:14 AM
No one is stopping those punks from farming.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 18, 2007, 03:33:41 AM
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It is a good idea, but it eliminates the need for some industry, and the reality of anarchy, which is that not all people are equal and so the things some people do will oppress others. Stupid people are oppressive to smart people, and vice versa. This is why dreamland utopias never happen. You need a pragmatic utopia, based on war and suffering.


nothing stops wars from happening, this idea simply means the number of people who do nothing and live of others will greatly fall, pollution will also greatly diminish and it gives everyone a role and a sense of importance towards nature

the Norse people lived like this, it didn't stop them from waging wars

in with regards to buckets_of_rain i am a unaware if other punks wish to live like this, but where would they get the amount of land they want to create a farming community

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 21, 2007, 10:40:43 PM
Human beings were always predetermined to destroy itself.  NOT predestined, but predetermined.  You know what was human-kinds' downfall from the beginning?  The first moments that they developed consciousness and self-awareness.  That was our undoing from the start.  Sure, it was a great blessing(only for us), in the beginning.  But it also drew up the blueprints of our self-destruction.  

Metal DID have the potential to undo the mistakes of the past.  Like you said. A revolution.  BUT LIKE EVERY GOOD IDEA, GOOD PRINCIPLE IN HISTORY(ancient and modern) THAT WAS THOUGHT UP IT WAS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RUINED BY HUMAN NATURE( that's where it is counter-revolutionary).  That SAME, SAD two-sided story to everything where people act as a team, a mass, a whole but really only caring about themselves as individuals.  They develop a mass unity with lots of the same people who think the same, develop brotherhood, eliminating the feeling of uncertainty, insecurity, finding identity, being blinded by romantism, etc, however, deep down inside in their hearts, they are selfish.  Self-absorbed.  Self-indulging.  They do only what suits THEMSELVES and NOT what suits the world.

Termite society works.  Ant society works.  Bee society works you know why? Because there is NO consciousness behind the work they do.  It is just pure, primordial instinct that drives them to excel.  No thought, no emotion, no self-awareness and STILL they achieve great things as a society because they just DO.  NO thinking. NO feeling.  Just DO.  

If metal is to succeed, we NEED to start being like termites, ants and bees(I know that sounds funny, stupid even). It needs ALL its members to just relax, calm down, stop thinking about their own preferences, their own thoughts and likes, and/or dis-likes and start just devoting themselves to each other and the common cause.  BUT they WON'T.  WHY?  Human nature.  

WE SUCK!!

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 21, 2007, 11:47:19 PM
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Human beings were always predetermined to destroy itself.  NOT predestined, but predetermined.  You know what was human-kinds' downfall from the beginning?  The first moments that they developed consciousness and self-awareness.  That was our undoing from the start.  Sure, it was a great blessing(only for us), in the beginning.  But it also drew up the blueprints of our self-destruction.  


You are confusing egoism with consciousness of the Self; the former is a product of the mind, illusory, while the latter is an understanding of humanity's cosmic role.

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Metal DID have the potential to undo the mistakes of the past.  Like you said. A revolution.  BUT LIKE EVERY GOOD IDEA, GOOD PRINCIPLE IN HISTORY(ancient and modern) THAT WAS THOUGHT UP IT WAS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RUINED BY HUMAN NATURE( that's where it is counter-revolutionary).  That SAME, SAD two-sided story to everything where people act as a team, a mass, a whole but really only caring about themselves as individuals.  They develop a mass unity with lots of the same people who think the same, develop brotherhood, eliminating the feeling of uncertainty, insecurity, finding identity, being blinded by romantism, etc, however, deep down inside in their hearts, they are selfish.  Self-absorbed.  Self-indulging.  They do only what suits THEMSELVES and NOT what suits the world.


This is no such thing as a specifically "human nature"--that is, it cannot exist categorically unto itself without some sort of hypostasis, either biological or metaphysical, but ultimately, both. Either one takes the traditional view that humanity's origins are extraterrestrial, and that what is called consciousness is an atrophied vestige from a suprahuman state following a process of organic involution, or the popular biological view that sentience evolved as an emergent phenomenon. The latter is in all likelihood a leftover of the Christian-cum-Hegelian view of history, being teleological in orientation, making it rather anthropocentric. Either way one cannot explain what is otherwise a biologically anomaly without necessarily understanding its biological underpinnings, whether they be solely materialistic or otherwise.


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Termite society works.  Ant society works.  Bee society works you know why? Because there is NO consciousness behind the work they do.  It is just pure, primordial instinct that drives them to excel.  No thought, no emotion, no self-awareness and STILL they achieve great things as a society because they just DO.  NO thinking. NO feeling.  Just DO.  

 If metal is to succeed, we NEED to start being like termites, ants and bees(I know that sounds funny, stupid even). It needs ALL its members to just relax, calm down, stop thinking about their own preferences, their own thoughts and likes, and/or dis-likes and start just devoting themselves to each other and the common cause.  BUT they WON'T.  WHY?  Human nature.  

WE SUCK!!


This is called a caste system.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 22, 2007, 02:15:19 AM
Dude. Hate Edge. It seems like you what you wrote came out of a text book.  Seems like, not is.  Even if it is, there is nothing wrong with that save this:  It complicates things when it is VERY SIMPLE.

First of all, egoism came from self-consciousness.  One begeting from the other.  Self-consciouness came shortly after consciousness itself AND here is where it gets very simple.  It ALL started when the first ape asked "WHY?". Not in words, of course but in a sense.  Remember, don't confuse "WHAT?" or "HUH?" with WHY? and THAT's the origin of consciousness itself.

Example? Try imagine being one of our ancient ancestors, basically apes.  Your using a tool(stick or piece of wood) to try to crack open a hard-shelled nut.  While your smashing it with your "tool", you accidently bang your finger.  Hard.  Very hard.  Now, the first thing most simple animals, and yes even your fellow apes, would do is react immediately with a yawp, or yelp, of pain, then have sensory acknowledgment of the pain, store the pain in sub-conscious memory consequently being able to avoid the same pain in the future.  It is just one big reaction, a very quick and simple kind of "what?" and "huh?". But not you.  You will become the FIRST one to recieve the pain and THEN cry about it.  You look at your finger, bleeding, throbbing and with some CONSCIOUS sense your asking yourself "WHY does it hurt? WHY!!!?????" The throbbing. The redness of blood capturing your eye sense.  The pain won't go, quicker than you want it to.  Then the main "WHY" comes: "WHY is this happening TO ME?"  Now, this where being conscious gained significance because not only have just raise significance on yourself, but more importantly, you'll DWELL in your experience as a significant event giving rise to other pathways of consciousness.  This is just one example, with pain.

 Do you guys understand what I'm trying to get at? Does it make sense to you?  Bit off the topic, but oh well.  Everyone else is doing it in these forums.

 

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 22, 2007, 09:47:18 PM
i have a question for you, if humans where meant to destroy each other how come the Aborigines lived for tens of thousands of years where they didn't even understand the concept of harming another human being, even any act against another human being was an impossible thought to them

When the white people came they invited them into there lands, and when they started killing them they had no idea why, it completely baffled them, so if these people lived over 80 thousand years like this, how is it human nature to kill each other

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 23, 2007, 01:53:49 AM
Well, here's the thing.  The australian aborigines were not a civilisation before the brits came.  They were more a collection of many different tribes.  These people, along with similar non-civilisation humans (serengeti tribes, native americans) I consider to be one with nature.  They lived in harmony with nature and the many animals of nature.  They hunted only for food.  They pretty much lived by the 4 REAL NEEDS of life. 1. Seek food & water.  2. Seek shelter. 3. Breed & Birth. 4. Protection of your progeny. Now they also lived by Nature's "needs" (In terms of an eco-system) like they did not over-populate, they never robbed the eco-system from its resourses,  they never wiped out a species important to the eco-system, etc.  In other words, these people we're simple and no where near as complicated as the white people when they came who already INVENTED new unnecessary "needs", which were all really wants.

See what I'm getting at? Their nature was Nature's nature (Ha ha! that sounds dumb) and not what we consider "Human nature".  

Still, the whites considered them to be "savages" when it was the whites who were savage, barbaric, cruel and sadistic.  I mean, it wasn't like when the brits met Maouri warriors.  The Maouri people put up a VERY good fight.  The Australian Aborigines GOT SLAUGHTERED.  Very sad stuff.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 23, 2007, 02:12:28 AM
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In other words, these people we're simple and no where near as complicated as the white people when they came who already INVENTED new unnecessary "needs", which were all really wants.


Sounds right. They encountered our modern man subspecies, an organism unique in that it imagines the natural world is no longer necessary.

Many inventions serve to assist this organism's pretense that reality is safely held at bay. It comes as no surprise the primitive people tended to reject the relatively childish moderns.

Re: Metal as revolutionary
January 23, 2007, 03:47:47 AM
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The Maouri people put up a VERY good fight.  The Australian Aborigines GOT SLAUGHTERED.  Very sad stuff.


the Maori had been fighting since long before the Europeans found them, they were skilled warriors and knew the ways of war, the Aborigines knew nothing of war, hence the Maori held respect from the Europeans were the Aborigines were seen as a waste of space. Also the Europeans and the Maoris were (sexually) attracted to each other which never happened with the Aborigines

But i enjoyed your idea about why the aborigines were so peaceful and literally like any of the other animals that lived in that land