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entartete Kunst

entartete Kunst
February 01, 2007, 06:28:56 AM
Is Metal degenerate art? What constitutes degenerate art? Are Metal’s origins degenerate? Metal is often compared to Classical music in its heroism, but Classical music seems to lack the vulgar aesthetic of Metal. What does this mean? Discuss.  

Re: entartete Kunst
February 01, 2007, 09:55:04 AM
the "vulgar aesthetic of Metal" is prominent because it is a dissident movement, in oder to move away from the mainstream community a more displeasing sound was required, as can also be seen by punk

Also this sound is comparable to finding the beauty in things otherwise considered ugly, hence showing there is nothing inherent in life including mans perception of beauty

not all metal is romantic and of platonic thought, although that would make up just under half of all metal. The other half advocates nihilism and is the complete opposite to the other camp bar its grasp for some sense of reality

Re: entartete Kunst
February 06, 2007, 12:11:44 PM
Is Metal degenerate art?

The good metal, no.

To paraphrase Socrates, any society that doesn't ban nu-metal is bound to produce generations of whiners.

Art or CRAP?

from Can you distinguish modern art from crap?

Re: entartete Kunst
February 07, 2007, 12:07:45 AM
The best metal is the 'classical' music of this age (as music in the direct line of descent from the classical past has abandoned any pretense of value in favor of an pedant's delight in meaningless arcana).  Because art is first a reflection of reality, metal has a 'vulgar aesthetic' in the sense that it accurately reflects the dissolution of the social order that upheld heroic values (we see this same process in nascent form in Romantic compositions) while at the same time inverting that aesthetic toward beauty and hope for the rebirth of the heroic world.

Re: entartete Kunst
May 28, 2007, 02:24:19 AM
Also this sound is comparable to finding the beauty in things otherwise considered ugly, hence showing there is nothing inherent in life including mans perception of beauty

I was struggling to put that into words.  Thank you.

Re: entartete Kunst
May 28, 2007, 06:43:59 AM
The best metal is the 'classical' music of this age (as music in the direct line of descent from the classical past has abandoned any pretense of value in favor of an pedant's delight in meaningless arcana).

That's unfair. 95% of metal is crap, but it's the top 5% that best evinces that which ennobles us. Likewise with contemporary classical (in fact, I'd probably be less pessimisstic about the ratio of crap to gold) - it makes no sense to make a large-scale indictment of contemporary classical based on the thornier exponents of the Darmstadt school and its imitators.

Re: entartete Kunst
May 28, 2007, 12:26:13 PM
95% of metal is crap, but it's the top 5% that best evinces that which ennobles us.

Any idiot hipster can strap on a guitar, con four people into helping out, and have a band. It's the top 2% that make a difference and they're not idiot hipsters, in metal. What makes metal non-degenerate are its values, and since values express linearly in music, its sound.

At any rate you can tell that a song or ode has three parts— the words, the melody, and the rhythm; that degree of knowledge I may presuppose?

Yes, he said; so much as that you may.

And as for the words, there will surely be no difference between words which are and which are not set to music; both will conform to the same laws, and these have been already determined by us?


And the melody and rhythm will depend upon the words?


We were saying, when we spoke of the subject-matter, that we had no need of lamentation and strains of sorrow?


And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical, and can tell me.

The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the full-toned or bass Lydian, and such like.

These then, I said, must be banished; they are of no use, even to women who have a character to maintain, and much less to men. Certainly.

In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our guardians.

Utterly unbecoming.

And which are the soft or drinking harmonies?

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian; they are termed "relaxed."

Well, and are these of any military use?

Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so, the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left.

I answered: Of the harmonies I know nothing, but I want to have one warlike, to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing, and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by some other evil, and at every such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure; and another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or on the other hand, when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion or entreaty or admonition, and which represents him when by prudent conduct he has attained his end, not carried away by his success, but acting moderately and wisely under the circumstances, and acquiescing in the event. These two harmonies I ask you to leave; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.

And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies of which I was just now speaking.

Then, I said, if these and these only are to be used in our songs and melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of notes or a panharmonic scale?

I suppose not.

Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners and complex scales, or the makers of any other manystringed, curiously harmonized instruments?

Certainly not.

But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players? Would you admit them into our State when you reflect that in this composite use of harmony the flute is worse than all the stringed instruments put together; even the panharmonic music is only an imitation of the flute?

Clearly not.

There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city, and the shepherds may have a pipe in the country.

That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.

The preferring of Apollo and his instruments to Marsyas and his instruments is not at all strange, I said.

Not at all, he replied.

And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unconsciously purging the State, which not long ago we termed luxurious.

And we have done wisely, he replied.

Then let us now finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies, rhythms will naturally follow, and they should be subject to the same rules, for we ought not to seek out complex systems of metre, or metres of every kind, but rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of a courageous and harmonious life; and when we have found them, we shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, not the words to the foot and melody. To say what these rhythms are will be your duty—you must teach me them, as you have already taught me the harmonies.

But, indeed, he replied, I cannot tell you. I only know that there are some three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four notes out of which all the harmonies are composed; that is an observation which I have made. But of what sort of lives they are severally the imitations I am unable to say.

Then, I said, we must take Damon into our counsels; and he will tell us what rhythms are expressive of meanness, or insolence, or fury, or other unworthiness, and what are to be reserved for the expression of opposite feelings. And I think that I have an indistinct recollection of his mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm; also a dactylic or heroic, and he arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the rhythms equal in the rise and fall of the foot, long and short alternating; and, unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an iambic as well as of a trochaic rhythm, and assigned to them short and long quantities. Also in some cases he appeared to praise or censure the movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm; or perhaps a combination of the two; for I am not certain what he meant. These matters, however, as I was saying, had better be referred to Damon himself, for the analysis of the subject would be difficult, you know?

Rather so, I should say.

But there is no difficulty in seeing that grace or the absence of grace is an effect of good or bad rhythm.

None at all.

And also that good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good and bad style; and that harmony and discord in like manner follow style; for our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words, and not the words by them.

Just so, he said, they should follow the words.

And will not the words and the character of the style depend on the temper of the soul?


And everything else on the style?


Then beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity—I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only an euphemism for folly?

Very true, he replied.

And if our youth are to do their work in life, must they not make these graces and harmonies their perpetual aim?

They must.