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Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 12:50:56 AM
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Always the spokesperson, so now you know what Dimebag's vision was. I can see that you're definitely an elitist. His vision doesn't fit yours, so it must be shit. So you have to dog everyone else just so that you can feel special, well your music is just as shitty as everyone else's.  
 
Which brings me to ask;  
are you a musician?  
If so, Are you in a band?  
I will not ask who, but I want to hear some of it, because it has to be amongst the greatest of artforms.  


so now you have to make music in order to judge it, does that mean you cant say how poor someones musicianship (assuming they are extremely poor at that particular instrument) just because you don't perform that instrument, does that not mean i cant point out a bad football team even if i don't play football

all your saying is that if you don't actively participate in something you cannot judge it

and if you stop and think for a second you will realize that metal is split down the middle with each side contradicting each other (that of the promotion of heroism and of nihilism) but you cannot achieve both (unless you use nihilism as a path to heroism but then you not supporting nihilism) and you cant have both fit into your "vision" (hence showing you that elitists accept more then just there own personal views)

"Maybe they didn't want to be more techinical, maybe they liked what they did, and maybe that's why they did what they did. THAT IS TRUE METAL! "

so if i make a song that lasts eight minutes of me playing one chord over and over and the note having the same value (ie minim, crotchet {or a 1/2
or a 1/4 for the American term for them}) with no drums and the bass doing the exact same thing and i enjoy and like it, does that make it "true metal"

all this is saying is everything has the same value and nothing is better then anything else, surely you can see the folly in such logic (after all you can replace the word they at the start of the second quote with any band and you can see my point)


 

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 03:50:59 AM
[[Holy shit, how do you like this one?]]

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Clearly, there was no implication that he was solely trying to " throw bunch of shit together just because he wanted to prove he can play guitar;"
- This is all explained pretty clearly - in the first post.

to quote him
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"only that it certainly fell away from creating something expressive and moved more towards proving himself as a musician within mixed genres."

Ok, I may have worded it differently, but it basically says the same thing, so it was implied. And, I wasn't responding to the first post, I was responding to LostWithin.

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If you read know how to read between the lines, Chuck died of AIDS.  It doesn't take 5 years to die of an aggressive and inoperable brain tumor.

You said:
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There's a danger in hypothetical speculation

Read between the lines, ok.
My grandfather died of a brain tumor, and it took three and half to four years before it took him, and he was VERY poor.

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I FE-XIBXABH said: "I'm starting to gather that an elitist has only the capacity to understand his own way of thinking."

(Your response) Isn't that what you're doing?

No, quite the opposite really.

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An elitist is a realist who recognizes that some things are more important than others. Your TV, politicians and friends will try to convince you of the opposite.

I believe a realist is someone who realizes that nothing is more important than anything. Now, I am not nor did I ever say that some things can NOT more enjoyable than others. I completely agree that some things hold greater value than others, it was always presumed that I didn't because of my opposition to some elitist ideals.

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An elitist knows that good technical death metal that pushes for artistic supremacy is more impressive than simpler stuff, but also likes the good simpler stuff.

Hm, I don't think it takes an elitist to realize that, but, ok whatever.

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If you want to know what Death wanted to be, check out the first two Morgoth EPs and Possessed.

So you KNOW what death wanted to be? Well, as a wise man once said:
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There's a danger in hypothetical speculation


And me, a fanboy? Wouldn't any critic who's not a musician be a fanboy? Btw, yes I play various instruments.

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so now you have to make music in order to judge it, does that mean you cant say how poor someones musicianship (assuming they are extremely poor at that particular instrument) just because you don't perform that instrument, does that not mean i cant point out a bad football team even if i don't play football

all your saying is that if you don't actively participate in something you cannot judge it

Is that what I was saying? This is just too funny. Sure you can criticize bands, it happens all too much. But being that you don't have musical abilities, you don't understand what it's like to play an instrument and make it do certain things, make melodies, rythms etc. So now I can say that you have NO clue what it's like to express yourself with an instrument. While you can criticize bands music, for you to judge their expression/vision is just rediculous.

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so if i make a song that lasts eight minutes of me playing one chord over and over and the note having the same value (ie minim, crotchet {or a 1/2
or a 1/4 for the American term for them}) with no drums and the bass doing the exact same thing and i enjoy and like it, does that make it "true metal"

You'll never know because you don't play an instrument. Btw, some romantic BM comes pretty close to that. And before further confusion arises, what I was saying is that those people were true to themselves and playing metal, that is true metal. Just because you play a certain genre of metal doesn't make you true if that's not really what you're about. I wonder how many country artists run around whinning about certain bands not being "true country"? ;D

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all this is saying is everything has the same value and nothing is better then anything else, surely you can see the folly in such logic (after all you can replace the word they at the start of the second quote with any band and you can see my point)

Just because I can say that everything is art is not the same as saying all art is equal. Those are two completely different ideas.


Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 04:07:03 AM
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 Is that what I was saying? This is just too funny. Sure you can criticize bands, it happens all too much. But being that you don't have musical abilities, you don't understand what it's like to play an instrument and make it do certain things, make melodies, rythms etc. So now I can say that you have NO clue what it's like to express yourself with an instrument. While you can criticize bands music, for you to judge their expression/vision is just rediculous



well actually i study classical music (yes study not just listen) and i do in fact play an instrument which i am quite proficient on, the instrument is bass and i perform it just below that of most atheist stuff (so i could perform a whole song without stopping but occasionally i would falter and some small segments would have me playing in a little poorer technique then is usual for me)


but when i was saying "all this is saying is everything has the same value and nothing is better then anything else, surely you can see the folly in such logic (after all you can replace the word they at the start of the second quote with any band and you can see my point)" i meant that anyone can do it just as well as that and has been done before, it does nothing new and is not innovative in anyway. if i did something interesting with it and made it something new out of such a simple aesthetics then i could call it metal but i only said you could play the one note of equal value and without pause markings and thats so easy to do even a five year old would do it just as well as Sibelius

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 04:25:57 AM
Hey man, I'm not here attacking anyones ability on an instrument, I encourage it! How would you feel if early on while you were learning the instrument, someone said you sucked and should give it up? Say you listened to him, then you would never know what you were capable of. OR, say people encouraged you to learn, then you might turn out to do something great in music. If nothing else, hopefully you'll learn that musicianship is sharing knowledge, that's the greatest part about being in the scene, is the people, depending on who you know I guess. The point I'm trying to make is, it's not what you do musically if it's not you, but understand it, and express yourself through it.

You should learn music and how to create moods, dynamics, melodies, technique etc. Once you've begun to achieve this, you'll see that creating it becomes almost like conversation between you and your bandmates, in creating music. Hopefully your results will be a collaborated idea that sings to people, but that's secondary, write what you want to hear, and you'll never go wrong!

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 04:35:04 AM
mayhem-to-carnage

The first instrument I learned was bass, it really is a great instrument. Be forewarned, it's hard as shit to find a band that has the room to allow for such a bass player, I am also fond of Athiest. But I soon struggled with being in techinical bands and not having the room to play those types of things. The guitars were too busy, on occasion they'd give a spot, but it didn't satisfy me. So I started getting into Primus, jazz, funk and other styles that allowed for more freedom for the bass to munipulate the music. Needless to say, I love metal too much and have switched instruments to where I'm satisfied playing the type of metal I want to play. But hey, good luck to you, I hope you have better luck than I did! I have since moved on to guitar and drums along with other instruments with I, unfortunately, don't continue with.

*note: In music understanding simplicity is paramount. You should learn that simple grooves should groove, melodies - sing, and rythms - swing. In learning this, you'll be able to see who has a true understanding of musicianship, through their achievements in simplicity. Then and only then should one move on to more complicated music. Otherwise your music will be dry.

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 07:57:41 AM
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I enjoy Human, but your argument is true. It also makes sense as some of his players were from Cynic. After that he became too obsessed with Priest and Helloween styled power metal with some edges of death metal remaining, and created flashy, overfilled rock based metal music. I think we all understand the legions of people who proudly state that Chuck created death metal and was the most technical, philosophical band. I think he was a solid guitarist but like dimebag darrel, wasted it on lesser, empty music.


A topic i have always wanted to discuss.

I think Chuck had little intention of creating a true Technical Death Metal band which was focused on dexterity. More or less, he tried to emphasis on the philosophical approach the genre had already undertaken several years later, and put it all into abstract thought. However either way, there are bands which are much more technically superior than Death ever was (and Cynic for that matter) such as Nile, Necrophagist, Martyr and Beneath The Massacre (there are a few more, but those exemplify what i'm trying to say) All these bands have developed some of the most unorthodox and aggressive emphasis on skill, not only in terms ofplaying the actual intrument, but in terms of song composition, incorporating things such as Polyrhythms and syncopations.

That was regarding the materialistic concept of the situation. Beneath The Massacre have brought what Chuck had tried to bring to light in their first LP, they not only extrapolated what Death has tried to say, but brought it all in a non socially relevant manner as to make it more sophisticated and not stagnant as the outcome of Death was.

Regarding Chuck and Dimebag as guitar players, i wouldn't say Chuck was as skilled as Dimebag. If you pick up Cowboys From Hell or Reinventing The Steel or just would have gone to a Dimebag concert you would have noticed his very advanced Legato technique, he was impeccable live really, although not amongst the likes of Micheal Angelo Batio and Paul Gilbert, could still hold his own against many, even if his music was useless.
Chuck on the otherhand, could play, but nothing above your average speed attack on the fretboard, it was nice to see him play solos, but nothing like what is said of him.

People should read this for a further insight on the issue.

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 04:03:00 PM
aren't death's later albums emo influenced metalcore ?

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 07, 2007, 06:57:18 PM
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Regarding Chuck and Dimebag as guitar players, i wouldn't say Chuck was as skilled as Dimebag. If you pick up Cowboys From Hell or Reinventing The Steel or just would have gone to a Dimebag concert you would have noticed his very advanced Legato technique, he was impeccable live really,

Chuck on the otherhand, could play, but nothing above your average speed attack on the fretboard, it was nice to see him play solos, but nothing like what is said of him.


Very good observation of their musicianship, that's very true! I was never a big fan of either really. I enjoyed ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME? because they were great live, that's it, I used to see them live (post their poser days) but before they went syncopation crazy. As for Death, I really just like the drummers on human and the sound of perserverance, the music does leave much to be desired, I'm not saying that it sucked, but, it's not my style really, least the drummers. Both did have moments of doing good and interesting things though.



And, emo is the new death! chuck wouldn't have it any other way.

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 08, 2007, 12:58:49 AM
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A topic i have always wanted to discuss.

I think Chuck had little intention of creating a true Technical Death Metal band which was focused on dexterity. More or less, he tried to emphasis on the philosophical approach the genre had already undertaken several years later, and put it all into abstract thought. However either way, there are bands which are much more technically superior than Death ever was (and Cynic for that matter) such as Nile, Necrophagist, Martyr and Beneath The Massacre (there are a few more, but those exemplify what i'm trying to say) All these bands have developed some of the most unorthodox and aggressive emphasis on skill, not only in terms ofplaying the actual intrument, but in terms of song composition, incorporating things such as Polyrhythms and syncopations.

That was regarding the materialistic concept of the situation. Beneath The Massacre have brought what Chuck had tried to bring to light in their first LP, they not only extrapolated what Death has tried to say, but brought it all in a non socially relevant manner as to make it more sophisticated and not stagnant as the outcome of Death was.

Regarding Chuck and Dimebag as guitar players, i wouldn't say Chuck was as skilled as Dimebag. If you pick up Cowboys From Hell or Reinventing The Steel or just would have gone to a Dimebag concert you would have noticed his very advanced Legato technique, he was impeccable live really, although not amongst the likes of Micheal Angelo Batio and Paul Gilbert, could still hold his own against many, even if his music was useless.
Chuck on the otherhand, could play, but nothing above your average speed attack on the fretboard, it was nice to see him play solos, but nothing like what is said of him.

People should read this for a further insight on the issue.


Death's music truly was empty in the later albums they produced, especially if it was inspired by christian ideas or wherever he was on the philosophy scale at that point in time.  Its hard not to get too subjective when talking about this stuff, but i really believe that Chuck's musicianship can not in any way compete with the spirit in Atheist's music.  The songs on Unquestionable Presence, aside from having unique and inspired lyrics, were expressive to the point where the music transmits the indescribable aspect of the music.  Because of that, i've had no real reason to pay attention to any other prog band since they've all failed to capture this essence that Atheist's music very clearly possesses.  Thats the reason i don't bother with Death or any other prog band:  no prog band since Atheist has been able to recreate this type of expression in music that speaks without speaking.  Prog metal is really just a joke term and any band who claims it is usually a sell out.  That gimmick is almost as bad as newer black metal, save a good few.  If you get past the hype, Chuck really wasn't this death/prog messiah.  His older albums were good, but theres definitely better, so why get hung up over it?  

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 09, 2007, 07:33:02 AM
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Death's music truly was empty in the later albums they produced, especially if it was inspired by christian ideas or wherever he was on the philosophy scale at that point in time.  Its hard not to get too subjective when talking about this stuff, but i really believe that Chuck's musicianship can not in any way compete with the spirit in Atheist's music.  The songs on Unquestionable Presence, aside from having unique and inspired lyrics, were expressive to the point where the music transmits the indescribable aspect of the music.  Because of that, i've had no real reason to pay attention to any other prog band since they've all failed to capture this essence that Atheist's music very clearly possesses.  Thats the reason i don't bother with Death or any other prog band:  no prog band since Atheist has been able to recreate this type of expression in music that speaks without speaking.  Prog metal is really just a joke term and any band who claims it is usually a sell out.  That gimmick is almost as bad as newer black metal, save a good few.  If you get past the hype, Chuck really wasn't this death/prog messiah.  His older albums were good, but theres definitely better, so why get hung up over it?  


Even if Chuck was somehow Christian inspired, i think that even his newest album, The Sound Of Perseverence had some decent music on although not as 'solid' as would be expected if you hadn't gave the album a listen. However, it is Chucks strongest guitar album, technically, although i don't recall any song titles, he definately cleaned up alot of his playing and was more successful at merging skill and intricate soloing with good phrasing - although even that is overrated by your average Death fan.

About no band being able to play the type of music Atheist has been playing, isn't that sort of broad? Have you heard of Dream Theatre for instance? Their music could be considered unparalleled really since their time signitures and composition is so well versed.
Plus i don't know if Gorgots would be considered Prog Metal, but their music is definately superior to Atheist as well. Polyrhythms and odd time signitures all fitted together in an extremely well organized, systematic rhetoric that has direction, integrity and is useful.
I am not dissing Atheist, but i think other bands are being overlooked because of Paterrsons death. Bands such as Martyr, Gorguts, Nile, Necrophagist and probably alot more that i am not aware of are completely ignored despite their intriguing characteristics of their material.

Azazel

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 09, 2007, 02:38:03 PM
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I am not dissing Atheist, but i think other bands are being overlooked because of Paterrsons death. Bands such as Martyr, Gorguts, Nile, Necrophagist and probably alot more that i am not aware of are completely ignored despite their intriguing characteristics of their material.


Personally, necro-faggots music doesn't lead me anywhere. Atheist, on the other hand, does. Necrophagist comes across as simply pretnetious (among other things).

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 09, 2007, 07:18:00 PM
endless discution, i think the point of this post is to realize (for people who wants to start a band, or people who just want to "enjoy" music) that "being" tech its not an objetive in music, but more like a "tool" or resource to create a more "rich composition". anyway like the guy of gorguts say "you dont have to be hypertechnical to create good music" if that were the case then black metal, punk, thrash, etc etc, is the bigest shit on music.

ozz

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 24, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
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aren't death's later albums emo influenced metalcore ?



Ha very well put, couldn't of said it better myself!  I used to be into progressive metal quite a bit because the blending of different genres was something exciting and new.  But I've come to find that a lot of it (progressive metal) is too soulless and full of way too much unneeded wankery.

Death metal however, in it's classic sense of the word (most of the bands on ANUS), easily holds up to the technicality of the more progressive bands.  It's just more direct and in your fucking face.  Which is a good thing.  
a fucking guitar wizard

ozz

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
February 24, 2007, 06:30:33 AM
And comparing Atheist to Necrophagist... is just well, a bad comparison.  Musically speaking, I think the majority of people on this forum would agree with which of the two is considered timeless (Although elements sucked, IMO).
a fucking guitar wizard

Re: Death:  Death-Metal Vs. Prog-Metal
April 23, 2007, 02:18:55 AM
On Feb. 7, 2007, 2:57 am, Markus wrote:
"..Dimebag..could still hold his own against many, even if his music was useless."

So you're callin' ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?'s music "useless", huh? My first metal album was Far Beyond Driven. So what if they're a mainstream band? They sure did introduce me to more underground bands later on.
Compared to run of the mill death metal bands that try too hard to sound technical and just end up being boring and anal-retentive, this album just have that primal element missing in a lot of metal albums these days. A lot of people who dismiss ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME? have not listened to it. Maybe because it made the bandmembers twice richer for it was their most top selling record.
Listen to that album, sonny, songs like "Strength Beyond Strength" and "Becoming" are achievements that not even Incantation's Onward to Golgotha or even Slayer is unable to duplicate. Crap like Reinventing the Steel is understandable for its lack of quality and Vulgar Display of Power for its simplistic approach and lyrical stupidity but FBD is what made Dimebag a fucking genius.
Besides those who claim to listen to the more technical and underground shit like Morbid Angel and Deicide are probably fucking pussies in real life and who seek to possess power by listening to songs about power, to obviously compensate for their impotence and lack of power in real life. That's what the real meaning of elitist, pathetic snob truly is.  
self-improvement is for the weak.