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Liberalism causes terrorism

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 12:19:24 AM
Threads like this sure uncover the closet leftists.

You're an idiot if you think this. I'm not advocating any political system. I'm simply stating what anyone who looks at the facts can see for christ's sake! The direction of history in the last century and particularly in the last 50 years has been aggressively towards liberal democracy. Calling this 'leftist' is like calling a friend who is watching a football game a defector because they observe that the other team is clearly winning.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 12:39:22 AM
Didn't I recently advise you not to insult me again?
See, this fine site no longer permits gratuitous insult.
If you are not a closet leftist, then clearly, my statement does not apply to you.
I am becoming very tired of hinting to various abusive characters that their behaviour is not acceptable.
And being so tired of it, no more hints will be forthcoming. There will be action, instead.
Squawk!

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 01:18:26 AM
What, so you think that, before liberalism, when people had an 'organic' or 'homogeneous' society... everything was hunky dory? Do you think that because everyone merely shared a religion and history, that there would have been no political differences: that groups were not persecuted, that class structures didn't exist, and that people would not have wanted to separate politically if they had the freedom, wealth and education? Have you ever read a history book?

I just don't see this "implosion" when I walk down the street or visit the city. I think it's masking your own values in 'The True' and 'The Good'. The direction of history is towards liberalism, and NON-LIBERAL cultures are collapsing, not the other way around! I'm not celebrating this, but you have to see the historical process for what it simply is!

The last century has seen dozens and dozens of communist countries fall. It has seen the rise and fall of fascism and national socialism. And it has seen the collapse of military dictatorships. All of these have been replaced with.... you guessed it: liberal democracy. This is just cursory fact. Liberal democracy brings with it certain discordant elements, and causes the odd shooting or bombing, but countries are flocking to it.

This is a lot of good brainfood, despite what others may say.

1st - You're right - just because people share a religion/history/etc does not mean that they will automatically have a 'hunky dory' society.....however I would say the chances for it are much more so than a society such as the USA currently. Wherever humans are in contact with other humans, there will likely be discrimination and persecution. The problem here to me is that many humans equate nationalism/shared religion & history to meaning 'YEAH we're awesome - FUCK EVERYONE ELSE YEEEAAAHH!!!' I've no problem with the first part, but the second part is bad news. It's where you get the wacko fundie Christians in the USA, but honestly at least they believe in something.

2nd - You won't really 'SEE' the implosion if you just walk around outside (unless you live in Section eight), more likely it'll be all right outside. The problems appear when you take in everything as a whole. Agreed here as well, it's going to be a tough slog for conservative minded governments and leaders to take hold in this day and age....how does one resist modernity and all of its free hookers? I for one hope that liberal democracy does not completely overshadow the Earth. It just doesn't work everywhere (or mostly anywhere for that matter).

3rd - the ODD shooting or bombing? Fuck me, shootings happen every day in the US (yeah I know I keep referring to the US but it's the most blatant and extreme example; could be what everyone else becomes if they aren't careful). But even with all of that crime, liberal democracies are so popular because they empower the individual to absurd lengths. I think what's even more scary is the fact that so much crime is shown on American TV....and next to no one cares about it anymore. They're desensitized to the fact that people are being KILLED over stupid bullshit, every day. It borders on surreal.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 01:46:53 AM
It does more than merely 'border' on the surreal.
But yes: leftism is so very appealing to so many, because to so many, it is so very appealing.
Who doesn't want free stuff?
Strangely, I don't. I regularly turn down free stuff. But I am not so naive as to take my own behaviour as anything like representative of the whole.
There are undoubtedly appealing aspects to leftism.
But knowing the damage it does, and where it must ultimately lead, integrity demands saying no to it.
Squawk!

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 02:34:41 AM
There are undoubtedly appealing aspects to leftism.
But knowing the damage it does, and where it must ultimately lead, integrity demands saying no to it.

And i'm trying to say that merely saying 'no' to it might not do anything if liberalism is the mere superstructure to a more fundamental economic base. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 02:45:07 AM
That book seems to have been written by a pro-democracy cheerleader who came to realize one part of Plato's theory on govt's. (Not disagreeing with you, Bill)

Liberal democracy is definitely not the end, though. However, knowing Plato's theory....I'm not anxious to see the next part.

No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 03:19:53 AM
That book seems to have been written by a pro-democracy cheerleader who came to realize one part of Plato's theory on govt's. (Not disagreeing with you, Bill)

Liberal democracy is definitely not the end, though. However, knowing Plato's theory....I'm not anxious to see the next part.

He's pretty much a classical liberal I think, with Neo-conservative leanings. However he has opposed the militarism and international-interventionist stance of recent US foreign policy, which sets him apart from Neo-conservative philosophy. Marxists hate him because he implies there is a dialectic to history, but that this dialectic is ending with liberalism and not communism, which is the opposite of what marx argued using the same or similar method (dialectic of history). This doesn't matter, what matters is whether his theories are correct. And they ride on the shoulders of such influential thinkers as Hegel, Kojeve, Marx, Weber (with a little Nietzsche in there on 'the last man'). More importantly, his ideas are persuasive from an historical-empirical point of view (despite advocating an all-encompassing 'philosophy of history', i.e. an account of history as being driven by a few essential factors - which is, technically speaking, not 'empirical history' which rejects essentialist thinking and grand narratives. But at least it's not post-modern history, which rejects any attempt to come to a greater understanding of historical processes as merely an imperialistic imposition of your own values and culturally-relative 'rationality' into realms where they don't/can't/shouldn't apply).

His ideas have nothing much in common with Plato's on the cycle of political systems, from what I've read.

This is a lot of good brainfood, despite what others may say.

Thanks, by the way.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 05:21:48 AM
His ideas have nothing much in common with Plato's on the cycle of political systems, from what I've read.


I need to be more specific when I post. Bad habits.

Should point out that Hegel was a big Plato fan. But, that aside, I was more referring to a particular 'theory' mentioned in "The Republic". Well it's not so much a theory, but rather the chapters dealing with the decline of the polis. You know, where we descend into brutal tyranny, spurred on as a result of a democracy? Not sure if you could call the USA at any point the ideal polis, but it definitely has seen its moments of greatness.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 07:17:42 AM
There are undoubtedly appealing aspects to leftism.
But knowing the damage it does, and where it must ultimately lead, integrity demands saying no to it.

And i'm trying to say that merely saying 'no' to it might not do anything if liberalism is the mere superstructure to a more fundamental economic base. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man

I don't agree that purely material concerns (this is essentially Marxist thought) are the prime moving force of societal development, even though they are important. A lot of our political systems exist simply as a response to unmanageable systemic complexity exacerbated by technology that leaves our biological nature far behind. This is not a technophobic argument, but liberal democracy is essentially just the managerialism that you could expect to occur with an increasing scale of society (whether real or theoretical), with the ideological post-Enlightenment element of people getting a voice.

Human relationships are even more complex than this and cannot be handled by the same means; even the managers are human with human failings. Although I am not making a traditionalist argument, traditional systems, though they may be non-rational, at least have passed the test of history in this regard. I don't doubt that they would curtail the material growth of a community as they are much more inefficient, however.

Singapore is an example of a "democracy" that attempts to deal with the human part of it as well, but fails spectacularly. From an economic perspective they are quite successful. The argument against liberalism etc. is not only that it is bad now, but that it is ultimately unsustainable and will collapse.

Edit: I have not read the book linked... but the pronouncement seems to smack of utopian idealism. We did it guys! End of history! In this era we have transformed! It just sounds like a liberal fantasy, I may be wrong.

Hey if I start to post mystical gems of rhetoric in the middle of intellectual arguments, does that mean I get to ban people when they inevitably insult me?

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 24, 2013, 07:37:48 AM
There's nothing inevitable about insulting people. An intellectual argument can do very well without insult becoming part of it. Think what you like, while remembering it really isn't necessary to write everything you may think.
And no, you don't get to ban people, unless you have been appointed to that capacity by the reigning monarch.

Squawk!

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 26, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
Quote
What, so you think that, before liberalism, when people had an 'organic' or 'homogeneous' society... everything was hunky dory? Do you think that because everyone merely shared a religion and history, that there would have been no political differences: that groups were not persecuted, that class structures didn't exist, and that people would not have wanted to separate politically if they had the freedom, wealth and education? Have you ever read a history book?
Do I think the past was an idyllic perfect utopia? No.
Was it better than what we have now? Yes.

I prefer a society that understands that history, race, and religion are all intertwined. That cultivates a heroic spirit and doesn't feel guilty for being militarily strong. That understands that not all people are equal and that men and women aren't the same.  What do you prefer?

Also, I wonder why you think class structures and persecuting unwanted groups are a negative. Seems like you want to have an egalitarian non-judgmental society...

Quote
I just don't see this "implosion" when I walk down the street or visit the city.
Reading your posts, I'm not surprised.
Liberalism is moral syphilis.

- Jonathan Bowden

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 26, 2013, 11:35:57 PM
...more sounds of a crow guffawing...
Squawk!

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 27, 2013, 05:50:52 AM
You're an idiot if you think this. I'm not advocating any political system. I'm simply stating what anyone who looks at the facts can see for christ's sake! The direction of history in the last century and particularly in the last 50 years has been aggressively towards liberal democracy. Calling this 'leftist' is like calling a friend who is watching a football game a defector because they observe that the other team is clearly winning.

True enough, but liberal democratic capitalism still isn't sustainable, particularly economically but demographically as well. LDC is best fit for the Anglo Saxon type from which it originated. Deviate a bit from this lineage and people start looking back to when they had a better fit for themselves:

Quote
German interest in the darkest chapter of their history seems stronger than it has ever been as the country marks several key anniversaries this year linked to the Nazi era.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/germans-fascinated-nazi-era-eight-decades-later-104844726.html

You're saying LDC is overwhelminlgy popular. So was Rome. The difference is, LDC will end up with a twentieth of the shelf life of the Greco-Roman civilizations. It doesn't even remotely resemble its instantiation from the end of the 18th century because it is too inherently unstable to avoid degrading.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 27, 2013, 07:22:07 AM
wonder why you think...persecuting unwanted groups are a negative.


Because that's a very, very slippery slope. I don't need to remind you that 'unwanted' can lead to genocide.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Liberalism causes terrorism
April 27, 2013, 05:11:03 PM
There's a world of difference between declining to extend rights to an 'unwanted' group, over and above those of the ones extending them, and genocide.
Squawk!