Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

the bite of the apple

the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 01:03:33 AM
The modern life tempt us with a shiny apple called desire. It can be cars, celebrity, vanity, big money, mindless sex, drugs, fine food, all types of material goods and man-made paradizes. But Underneath of it, there is a  nasty, a sneaky poison wich drove us more and more from reality into the realm of dreams and illusions. If we take a bite of that fruit, we become dead to the real world. Only a kiss of true Love can bring us back in the realm of the living.



Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 01:27:27 AM
You are right. And the desire for knowledge, too. Knowledge is there, all the time, all around, as you need to know it. Like air. Why gather it up and pack it around?

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 02:34:43 AM
Yes this is exactly what the story from Genesis was about.  Once desire takes control of us it destroys our souls.

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 02:43:06 AM
But without desire, what is there to motivate us? I've always felt that a "true" stoic would just lay down and starve to death. Or is sustaining one's life the only acceptable desire?

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 02:55:18 AM
Why sustain life, anyway? It lasts as long as it lasts.
But even so, one is better able to sustain life without the desire to.
Yes, that makes no sense. Why should it though?
And what is motivation, anyway? A choice you may make.
Being alive is life, in its entirety, but only those who have discovered that, alongside every other living creature, know how delicious that is.

Phoenix

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 05:40:39 AM
But without desire, what is there to motivate us? I've always felt that a "true" stoic would just lay down and starve to death. Or is sustaining one's life the only acceptable desire?

Laying down and starving to death would be a choice. Refraining from making any choice is impossible, it teaches you that choosing nothing, that too is a choice.

The modern life tempt us with a shiny apple called desire. It can be cars, celebrity, vanity, big money, mindless sex, drugs, fine food, all types of material goods and man-made paradizes. But Underneath of it, there is a  nasty, a sneaky poison wich drove us more and more from reality into the realm of dreams and illusions. If we take a bite of that fruit, we become dead to the real world. Only a kiss of true Love can bring us back in the realm of the living.

Why is desire to blame more than ignorance is? If one realizes that trivial possessions such as extreme popularity or a huge television bring only temporary satisfaction and lead to an eventual crash, then surely one would no longer desire such things.

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 05:43:27 AM
Desire is ignorance. But ignorance would, by its nature, never suspect that to be the case.

Phoenix

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 05:54:21 AM
True, if one is ignorant then, although they may have a general impression of their ignorance, by definition they must lack the specific understanding necessary to debunk it. I don't disagree.

But what I'm asking is, if desire and ignorance are the same thing, then why particularly emphasize desire, what about the other side of the coin?

Re: the bite of the apple
May 17, 2013, 06:02:58 AM
Because desire is something often thought to be good, whereas nobody deliberately goes after ignorance.
This whole subject is the epitome of paradox:
I find myself, every day, unable to deliver the goods to the very people most in need of them, because they have no way to understand what is being offered. Similarly, having the goods to offer, renders me unable to describe what those goods are to those who know nothing of them.

Desire is the root of all that prevents people being any more than Pavlovian creatures of desire.
It takes something like faith, to let desire go, and then something like patience, to discover the subtle, yet breathtaking difference a desire-less state brings.

Phoenix

Re: the bite of the apple
May 18, 2013, 03:48:27 AM
I fully recognize the real, unavoidable consequences of what's typically understood as 'desire'. However in my view arguing against desire often leads to ignorance because it promotes faith, just like the original post of this thread cautions against the tree of knowledge and instead promotes a concept of 'Love'.

When people hear arguments against desire they almost always think of asceticism, but asceticism is only one possible path beyond desire and people shouldn't (and won't be) forced down it. I believe, as do many others, that desire remains even in enlightenment - but desire of an all-permeating, effortless and light variety.

Today's English vocabulary isn't great at isolating the negative side of desire. You could say desire is bad when it focuses on any one thing in particular and thus obfuscates one's wider vision. For example if you so badly want to hit a bullseye with a bow and arrow then you'll be preoccupied with attaining that slim objective and the personal satisfaction you attribute to it.

The opposite, however, is not to want to hit the bullseye less, nor is it to shift one's intention towards being unconcerned with hitting the bullseye. The act of desire is a two-sided coin involving both the state of desire as well as the individual allowing the state to arise. When one perceives their desire to be terribly specific and intense then they are small because they care for and invest themselves in nothing but that desire and the corresponding outcome; but when one steps back and is mindful of a greater context then the desire seems less, not because it diminishes but because it occupies a proportionally smaller portion of one's attention alongside other higher things.

From a wiser perspective, the act of hitting the bullseye cannot be completely separated from what comes before or after it, as for instance one cannot truly 'slice' time to delineate one action from another since time is infinitely divisible or, more accurately, non-existent (scientifically plank time, by the way, only indicates human limitation to measure time, but does not actually identify constituent units of which time is composed). A matrix of patterns, existence always involves things within things, acts within acts, processes within processes, and I would not want to sully my experience of going to the archery range with the experience of obsessing over a particular shot and forgetting about the beautiful sky overhead or the stillness, playfulness and power within.

Re: the bite of the apple
May 18, 2013, 04:35:18 AM
Maybe you'll discover that everything is actually very, very simple.
That'd be nice, eh?

Re: the bite of the apple
May 19, 2013, 11:45:31 PM
I've found that being still and just listening to my body/mind is the only way to find out when and how desire is present. Once I've detected it, and noted how it manifests, I can proceed to remove it - and then feel true satisfaction.

This process requires a certain amount of respect for desire, though. It's important not to underestimate its power. It can be a lot more clever than you think, really. In fact it is often when I feel the most clever and enlightened that I am actually desirous without noticing. It can take a long while to figure out, when and how I've been lying to myself. I'm getting better at it all the time, though.

But it would be foolish of me to say that I've ridden myself of desire. Then I would become less aware. Why would I want that?

It's not about seeing yourself as free from desire, but about actually becoming free from desire. If you fake it, you're only fooling yourself.