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Spiritualism

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 03:23:39 AM
If I recall correctly, I believe that the difference between the Father and the Holy Spirit is that the Father is the Creator and in a manner of speaking dwells beyond reality.  The Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that is actually in reality, here on earth, everywhere and always.  The Holy Spirit is also what impregnated the Virgin Mary.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not the "us" in Genesis, it doesn't come until much later.  So I don't think Catholicism is actually that concerned with cosmology beyond God the Father creating everything as told in Genesis.
His Majesty at the Swamp / Black Arts Lead to Everlasting Sins / Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism / Oath of Black Blood / Privilege of Evil / Dawn of Possession / In Battle There is No Law / Thousand Swords / To Mega Therion

Phoenix

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 05:16:49 AM
I'm going to delve even deeper into incomprehensibility and try to illustrate my... whatever... one more time. Draw yourself the classic Taijitu circle. Both of the little circles within the main circle are also Taijitu circles. Those circles have their own two more Taijitu circles each. Repeat forever.

That's really the most elegant way I could describe it. Like I said, words are mostly useless.

BUT DAMNED IF THAT'LL STOP ME.

You can't repeat forever because the creation and/or imagination of an additional circle is an action, so you can keep on creating or imagining more, as quickly as you can, but you'll only ever be on a given one and there will always be a finite number of preceding ones.

All religion just has to be an attempt to explain the unexplainable.
Only a human could devise such an unnecessary thing.
Only a human positively couldn't live without an explanation instead of a mystery.

Hmmm, regardless if a person is religious or not, there will always be things they recognize that they know, and there will always be mysteries they recognize they don't.

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 05:46:58 AM
Maybe there *is* no cause.

Maybe all begins and ends with *process*.

The universe is not, never has been, never will be static.

Phoenix

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 06:08:41 AM
Maybe there *is* no cause.

Maybe all begins and ends with *process*.

The universe is not, never has been, never will be static.

Regardless of cause, how can everything begin and end with anything other than process? Stasis only exists if there are things to be held in stasis, in which case stasis couldn't possibly be total.

Admittedly it's difficult to conceive of a first cause arising purely of its own accord out of utter non-existence, on the other hand it's equally difficult to conceive of reality always having existed.

However upon further inspection causality must unequivocally flow in only one direction. It is a PROCESS so even if it could flow, be written, in both directions simultaneously, reality would still have an initial starting point, simply a constantly receding one.

I believe the first cause is emptiness realizing its own emptiness, which is incredibly difficult to express in words so far as I have yet discovered but which is more readily understandable through study and meditation and which does jive with must Eastern Spirituality that regards the source and divine of all things as "Emptiness".

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 06:33:28 AM
Fair enough; think what you will.

But, we, as humans, experience temporal existence, and that is hardly a universal factor.

Physicalists speak of the "arrow of time", and it applies in direct correlation to entropy, which is really only an artifact of existence.

Causality is contingent on time, and time is contingent on space, and space is contingent on order, and order is contingent on entropy, and entropy is contingent on time. See how you can't really reduce it any further? In zero-space (which was the initial condition of the "universe") there *was* no time because there was no relation between ordered objects. Nevertheless, there was a beautiful burst of randomness, and the universe was born! Because when the whole program of the universe is compacted into zero-space, all it takes is a single quantum fluctuation to turn that perfect little point into a wonderful mess of galaxies and minds.

So, you are right, there really is nothing more than process because existence is contingent on process. The difficult thing is that process is not contingent on a starting or ending point. Existence is, however, and so that is how we observe things. There is more to the universe than our observations, though.

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 07:05:04 AM
I can't even read this stuff.
What use is a mind that is filled with this?
Does it actually do anyone any good? Does it create anything for anyone, or for anything?
I discovered a great secret, some years back: the empty mind is the free mind.
Like the cosmos, it is mostly vacuum. Grand, beautiful, magnificent, regal.
But most of all: emptiness, ready to hold any amount of anything, but without needing to.
Ready.

Squawk!

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 03:54:30 PM
"All is meaningless, utterly meaningless," says the teacher.

What good does it do? It puts my mind in perspective against itself. It fills me with awe. It makes my blood race. It confronts me with the impossibility of truly understanding the essence of anything.

It's pretty normal to not be like me, though.

The cosmos may appear to be mostly vacuum, but there is unlimited energy in that apparent emptiness. Matter pops into existence and annihilates itself at random all the time. "Nature abhors a vacuum."

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 03:58:35 PM
I can't even read this stuff.
What use is a mind that is filled with this?
Does it actually do anyone any good? Does it create anything for anyone, or for anything?
I discovered a great secret, some years back: the empty mind is the free mind.
Like the cosmos, it is mostly vacuum. Grand, beautiful, magnificent, regal.
But most of all: emptiness, ready to hold any amount of anything, but without needing to.
Ready.

Maybe that's why so many religions and mythologies have Creation stories.  So that people can then move on with life.
His Majesty at the Swamp / Black Arts Lead to Everlasting Sins / Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism / Oath of Black Blood / Privilege of Evil / Dawn of Possession / In Battle There is No Law / Thousand Swords / To Mega Therion

Phoenix

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 04:33:59 PM
Causality is contingent on time, and time is contingent on space, and space is contingent on order, and order is contingent on entropy, and entropy is contingent on time.

Hmmm, I'm not grasping this chain of contingency at all.

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 06:30:40 PM
crow is right for people with no knowledge of science/philosophy: these people have no business talking about it, they just parrot whatever they hear, see or read which is probably extremely condensed in the first place so the common man can get an idea.

But there are people who are made for this stuff, they genuinely understand the concepts and think about them in a real way. They can't stop doing it, because they are real scientists and philosophers.

I am the non-knowledge type
You're quite hostile.

I got a right to be hostile, man, my people been persecuted!

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 10:18:49 PM
Causality is contingent on time, and time is contingent on space, and space is contingent on order, and order is contingent on entropy, and entropy is contingent on time.

Hmmm, I'm not grasping this chain of contingency at all.

I can try to be clearer.

Causality means that event A leads to event B.

These events A and B are separated by time.

Time is only the movement of atoms through space. (It is also relative; the fewer atomic movements, the less time passes.)

We can only compare two (or more) points in space because they have different densities of specific atomic configurations. If two points in space have the exact some atomic configuration, then we would have trouble saying that they are indeed two different points. But, pretty much any two points we can pick in space will have different atomic configurations, and we can be pretty sure of that because they are divided by time as well as space. So, we say that they are *ordered* in such and such a way. (In a singularity, there is no such thing as two different points; every potential atomic configuration exists in the same point; this was the state of the early universe.)

These different atomic configurations are guaranteed to not be the same because energy must be expended  to move a configuration into a more ordered state. This means that, while we see the order in one state or another, that order cost the rest of the universe some loss of energy. There is no arguing this; anything opposing this rule violates thermodynamics, which, as we know so far, is not possible to violate. It is called entropy.

Entropy is how we notice ourselves (and all the other atomic configurations in the universe) "moving through" time. If we did not experience entropy, we would have to see everything in an utterly disordered state; a singularity of perfect smoothness and infinite curvature.

Thankfully, we don't  have to experience that, but the price we pay for being able to see the universe stretched out through time is the constant loss of energy.

I guess I'm trying to explain existence here, in its most basic terms, but it is kind of difficult if it never really hit you. I can only try to describe the sensation that occurs when I feel myself moving through time, and I do a poor job of it generally. It is hard to find the words.

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 10:45:05 PM
It's hard to find the words.
This is where spirituality meets science.
The words are inadequate symbols for what is being poorly described.
Words are a way to wake people up and get them with the program, but words only begin to accomplish that when every word means the same thing to everybody. Witness entropy in action: nobody able to explain anything to anyone and no-one able to understand anything. All foretold in Revelations. Which possibly points to it being a cyclic event.

The very few people in human history that have seen The Whole Reality, have been confounded by an inability to explain their experience. Parables are the closest thing to communicating such things.

Squawk!

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 11:18:15 PM
I disagree. I'm an arrogant bastard and will drain the usefulness out of worded explanations because I don't know now of another way to communicate such ideas.

Uphill battles are my forte.

Re: Spiritualism
August 21, 2013, 11:52:20 PM
Used to be mine, too. For all the good it did me. Age modifies a lot of things.
You'll discover, at some point, that no matter how hard you try, or how well you say it, the understanding you assumed was taking place in your audience, wasn't really there, at all.
Squawk!

Re: Spiritualism
August 22, 2013, 12:16:45 AM
Nevertheless!

I assume no understanding; I assume no audience. I assume possibility, that is all.

I am only 26; I allow myself some measure of naivete.