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Spiritualism

Re: Spiritualism
August 28, 2013, 04:34:36 AM
Fine, if that's the way you see it, and you may be right.
It seems to me, though, that you reference Christianity to know Jesus, and that might be suspect.
My point, if I even have one, is more to do with believing whatever you choose to, while allowing others the to do the same thing.
Discussion is natural, and often useful.
Ridicule is less so.
03-04 courageously (in these times) states he is a Christian. Being one inevitably entails revering his path and his God.
So ridicule is especially unkind, even cruel, in this case.
Besides, what could you possibly achieve by such ridicule?
Nothing useful, certainly.





Re: Spiritualism
August 28, 2013, 04:48:14 AM
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Besides, what could you possibly achieve by such ridicule?

Well, it was the catalyst for our exchange tonight.

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So ridicule is especially unkind, even cruel, in this case.

I ridicule Christianity as I ridicule liberalism, Marxism, feminism, Islam, and all the rest. Would you call me cruel to attack the others?

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03-04 courageously (in these times) states he is a Christian. Being one inevitably entails revering his path and his God.

It takes courage to state many beliefs. That doesn't mean the belief is entitled to any respect from others.

I expect people around these parts to be able to deal with their "muh feelings!"  :'(

Re: Spiritualism
August 28, 2013, 04:57:04 AM
And I expect you to take a gentle hint.
This ignorant ridicule crap is stopping. Now. Get with it, or get lost.

Re: Spiritualism
August 28, 2013, 07:59:11 AM
Ha! I guess ridicule sort-of comes with the whole 'calling yourself a Christian'-thing, which is why I wouldn't really call myself a Christian anywhere, always, unless it served a specific purpose. And since this is a metal-board, what could be more blasphemous than the presence of 'pious' man like myself?

Besides, Christ was very much about expecting to be ridiculed - and to not care about it.

But don't worry Wild - I won't say 'Jesus loves you, brother. I love you. Join me in gay prayer'. Unless you really want me to?

You seem awfully sure about exactly what Jesus, the pacifist jew teaches, btw:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

In other words: You seem to take him as a flat symbol for everything you abhor. As such, you are nothing but a 'Christian' in reverse. You see him as an excuse for you venting your own beliefs - much like many people see reality itself.

Or perhaps you hate Christianity because you just know you've understood Nietzsche?

Jesus gives all glory to God/Reality ('the kingdom of heaven') - not himself. No cult of personality. Sure, a lot of egomanical people have tried to make it into a cult of personality - but that's got nothing to do with Jesus. Or me, for that matter,

I am not member of any church. I believe in reality, and in myself becoming real ('shedding the old man'). And believe it or not: I haven't chosen my 'religion' (if you wanna call it such), as much as it has chosen me. If I cared about appearing cool in this world, I definitely would have chosen any religion but 'christianity'.

My path to Christ went through black metal, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and Giordano Bruno. I spent a long time with the Tao te Ching and the I Ching before even picking up the Bible. I imagine I would have a hard time with most self-styled 'Christians'... but just because the world is full of idiots, it doesn't mean that I have to be one myself.

Sure it was a lot easier back when I could just blame Christ for all the problems of today - but I don't really miss it.

Re: Spiritualism
August 28, 2013, 03:56:39 PM
That's nice. But don't, please, go rubbing barbarian noses in it.
The blasphemous atheist is, in his way, every bit as sensitive for his non-belief, as a believer is in his belief.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 01:15:59 PM
Duly noted. Got a bit carried away there.


Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 01:54:46 PM
I can sort of (and sort of not) relate to this in that I wouldn't call myself a Christian but I also wouldn't deny being one either. Same goes for any other religion. Ultimately it comes down to a definition and only I really know if it fits me or not (despite what I or others might label me as). Perhaps a definition fits one minute and not the next. Besides that, there's an awful lot of crossover between various religions, philosophies and teachings so if you follow one do you not inadvertently fit in nicely with the others. It might be a good way to be. Something that flows beneath them all.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 02:20:57 PM
I think you are right. That's sobriety right there.

I would say someone truly with Christ would at the same time be with the tao, with Krishna, Odin, the great mother or Lord Satan, even. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what leads you to reality - what matters is that your getting there.

For me personally though, I feel a special connection to this cross-hanging carpenter jew that is unlike anything else. For some mysterious reason this character is especially appealing to me.

But that appeal is just that - personal. Therefore it doesn't really matter.

Reality really matters.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 06:12:46 PM
Wild's criticism was directed too generally and reeked of bitterness. I empathize though; I was raised by christians and hated every bit of it by the time I was a teenager. I had legitimate reasons: Other christians mostly used their relationship with god to masturbate their sense of self-worth, which is not a wrong thing but it so contradicted their stated position. I was irked when they spoke of how wretched and vile they were as a lowly human and how their relationship with christ legitimized their basic existence. It repulsed me at how compartmentalized their minds were that they could say such things while thinking such thoughts and comitting such acts. They practically reveled in cognitive dissonance.

Finally, after much discourse with the most learned Biblical scholars I could get in contact with, I was able to distill the essence of their message; "So long as you act with the best intentions, consequences are irrelevant." This further irked me. It was too fatalistic.

By my late teens I had to come to terms with the fact that I was just bitter that I was disillusioned by the fantasies allowed me by the church. They are easy to get caught up in when everyone else seems to be taking them seriously. Atheism did not do much for me; much too boring, first of all, but it also allowed my bitterness to seethe and fester. I knew I had to confront it and excorcise it somehow because the guilt of sin so weighed on me still. I had to admit that my disillusioned state was my own fault. It is a hard thing to do.

Only a short few years ago I would feel the need to delve into black magickal rituals in attempts to prove to myself that the old duality between sin and righteousness was no longer so deeply programmed into me. I found success in that way; going to church on morning, later that night uttering curses and chants in my basement, surrounded by sigils and candles, blood dripping from my body. Before long I had practically no feeling left at all toward god or satan; neither were interested in me; I was a "free" man at last! I had succeeded in removing the programmed sin/righteousness duality from my mind and so continued to subject myself to outrageous psychological experiments just to *make damn sure* that christian guilt was never going to intrude on my decision making processes again.

Turns out; I had actually seared the part of my mind that *is* the decision making process. I had achieved amorality at a cost that I was not prepared to pay.

That's when I realized what Christ (and by extension, most all faith) was really about. We need something without ourselves to guide our decisions because we are indeed quite incapable on our own. This is when the story ends because I am here now; jeaulous of people like 03-04. Thanks for your words; they are more encouraging than I could really express.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 07:25:50 PM
That's the spirit! It really, really is.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 08:59:50 PM
That is very touching dead last, if you dont mind me saying. The Lord is your shepherd for a reason, though that has been repeated ad nauseum to the point of becoming an empty catchphrase and I am sure most Christians do not understand it. Yet its essence is powerful, and you seem to grasp its need at least. Religion is deeply ingrained in humanity.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 09:41:21 PM
There is a type of Heisenbergian uncertainty to faith; if you take it at face value, it works well and as intended. If you really want to analyze its workings on the most elemental level, though, your observations will affect those workings. Push too far, and soon you are in an alien world of nonsensical atomic interactions that deny your every perception.

Some magick students say that if you abandon magick, it forever abandons you. The Bible says that if you deny the Holy Spirit, your name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. They are talking about the same thing, basically. "Curiosity killed the cat" also applies here.

Maybe my username should have been dead cat!

This is not a pity party though; I am satisfied with knowing what is attainable, even if I can't attain it. Let it serve as a warning, that's the best thing.

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 09:48:15 PM
Intellect is a man's worst enemy, if it is exalted over all else.
I see, Dead Last, you have discovered this.
Exciting, to my wife and I, to read about it.


Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 10:12:55 PM
Faith for me has been all about grasping that, which the intellect will never grasp. Years of heavy philosophy reading created a vacuum in my perception of reality - and then, suddenly, there was Christ as a doorway to all the wondrous mystery of the world, that I had neglected for such a long time.

A huge part of this however comes from my background: I am from Denmark, where literally everybody is a liberal atheist, and religion in general - especially Christianity - is something frowned upon.

I don't think Jesus would hold the same power for me if I had a background like yours, dead last. In fact, I recognize many of my own thought-patterns in your posts.

I have to say you are very honest. An enlightening read!

Re: Spiritualism
August 29, 2013, 11:33:35 PM
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"Curiosity killed the cat"

I've heard curiosity described by a Zen teacher as the opposite of Zen. I've also talked at length with an eloquent craftsman, who described curiosity as the ultimate form of love. I tend to agree with the craftsman.

knowledge (n.)
early 12c., cnawlece "acknowledgment of a superior, honor, worship;" for first element see know. Second element obscure, perhaps from Scandinavian and cognate with the -lock "action, process," found in wedlock. Meaning "capacity for knowing, understanding; familiarity; fact of knowing" is late 14c. Sense of "an organized body of facts or teachings" is from c.1400, as is that of "sexual intercourse." Also a verb in Middle English, knoulechen "acknowledge" (c.1200), later "find out about; recognize," and "to have sexual intercourse with" (c.1300).