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New Underground Wave

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 10:08:33 AM
Tryestero: I can't hear any better argument than, "they suck because they are bad because they are gay because they are faggots because they suck because..." I'm into musical analysis. I hate to play that card because suddenly I become a dick but if you force me into a corner; you don't know much about theory and technique if you are telling me that Liturgy's music is just plan bad. It is very well crafted from the perspective of analyzing dynamic composition. They exceed on every level in that case and that is the most important thing to me when I hear music.

Also, general perception is not relavant to me.

Metal bands that I listen to on a regular basis include Incantation, Immolation, Burzum, Intestine Baalism, Emperor (mostly just Nightside Eclipse though), Death, Possessed (Seven Churches is the only album I own actually), Sepultura, and Slayer. Non-death/black; Maiden, Priest, Mercyful Fate, Sabbath.

I don't desire any image of metal so I'm unaffected by image distortion.

I also don't have a Liturgy t-shirt. I don't own any band t-shirts, actually.

Hoodwink; I don't know anything about Taylor Swift but if their music was composed and executed as accurately as Liturgy's, I could probably get something out of it. You must have something against honest enjoyment if you automatically assume that I intend irony by listening to Liturgy. Can you even tell me how irony applies in this context?

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 10:32:29 AM
You obviously dont hate playing that card my friend. Incidentally are you also the person writing walls of text in a Carcass post on the front page? A `well crafted` piece of shit stays a piece of shit. It is the Yngwie Malmsteen argument, have you ever heard what a zealous defender of Yngwie sounds like? Poetry that uses every single textual trick, that is meticulously crafted and even fits its topic is still terrible if it is superficial. There is no `heaviness` to Liturgy, no depth to the experience. I dont know how interesting it can be, but it evokes nothing (except annoyance).

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 01:04:36 PM
Actually I really do not like to play that card because most of the time it causes others to assume that I'm trying to place a gap of knowledge between myself and them thus making myself immune to any further argument because suddenly I am on untouchable ground. Really, I am just trying to give us *any* ground on which we can put opinions into objective context. Else, we are locked up at the point of "your opinion sucks because it differs from mine".

And no, I don't know anything about Carcass, and I don't have any opinions on them except that I listened to Heartwork several years ago, thought it was boring, and passed over it in favor of a Cryptopsy album that I was listening to at the same time. I never really gave them another listen. I have not followed any Carcass conversations.

If your argument is that Liturgy is shit music because it's shit music then you are basically saying you don't understand how I could appreciate any part of it and we can leave it at your lack of comprehension or my bad taste and further argument is futile.

Otherwise you can outline in specific terms the reason that Liturgy sucks. I'll even give you a template: Lyrics? Technique? Songwriting? Modes? Scales? Album art? Clothing?

As for the argument about musicianship; Malmsteem is a straw man because I never said that practicing your instrument a lot makes your music valuable. I said that music has innate value when traditions of composition are paid close attention to and followed closely or subverted tastefully. Humanicide asked if there was even a point in learning to play your instrument well if it doesn't make you write good songs. The answer is really self-evident; do you want your music to be anything more than pounding on a log with animal bones? Learning your craft is the only way to achieve a wide enough pallet to accurately express whatever it is you are trying to express. Otherwise rock music probably would have peaked at hardcore and we'd all worship Minor Threat like the way mommy hangs up her retarded child's crayon scribbled mess on the refrigerator. Hey, he's expressing himself, it's "good enough", what more could we want?

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 01:56:04 PM
That is pretty much what I am saying, yes. I dont understand how you can like Liturgy. Malmsteen is not a strawman, the man doesnt just have dextrous fingers but produces quite `complex` music. It is quite difficult to express in words what it means for music to be evocative, what it means for art to be good because we do process it subjectively. It does matter if a painter adheres to form and tradition, and if he is skilled, but in the end it is what he paints that matters most. The spirit of Liturgy is almost anti-metal, and it comes out in the music.

As far as insincerity is concerned, Liturgy itself is insincere (whether they realize it or not) so extending this to Liturgy listeners is not a big jump. Nor is it inaccurate as a generalization.

What are the positive points of Liturgy anyway? I know you have mentioned some but lets have some detail. Defend Liturgy. I may not be up to answering but we do have people on the forum who can elaborate on technique if you go in that direction.

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 03:03:55 PM
Malmsteem's music is not complex when scrutinized. He basically plays arpeggios which are a fairly straightforward melodic pattern, and he hardly varies a pattern once he introduces it into a song. He sticks very rigorously to very well-established western scales and modes, whereas another metal-influenced guitarist like Paul Gilbert is always prepared to throw a curveball at you by jumping to another mode while still playing a solo in one key. That takes some daring that I've never heard in Malmsteem's technique. If you took all of Malmsteem's notes from one song and smashed them together, you would have a handful of traditional minor and major chords. That does not necessarily prove that his music is "simple" but my point is that things are not always as complex as they seem; sometimes they are just dazzling. But, you already knew that about Malmsteem.

I'll elaborate on Liturgy's technique later when I have access to youtube so I can point to specific passages rather tthan be too general.

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 03:08:51 PM
Can you even tell me how irony applies in this context?

Liturgy is a bunch of milksop hipsters trying to go slumming on the weekend by playing contrived metal music.  Their fans are people who devote the thrust of their intellects to opinions on scarves and gourmet coffee and when they want to feel edgy yet condescending, they toss on Liturgy or a Notorious B.I.G. song.

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 03:51:17 PM

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 05:08:03 PM
Can you even tell me how irony applies in this context?

Liturgy is a bunch of milksop hipsters trying to go slumming on the weekend by playing contrived metal music.  Their fans are people who devote the thrust of their intellects to opinions on scarves and gourmet coffee and when they want to feel edgy yet condescending, they toss on Liturgy or a Notorious B.I.G. song.

That is news to me. I never met the band or read any of their interviews. I thought they were relatively unknown but that is just probably where I'm from. Here, no one even knows what a hipster is, and they think metal is Creed and death metal is Slipknot. Several years ago I did play in a band with a guy who listened to In Flames but I thought they were pretty boring. I knew a college kid who liked King Diamond but he was what I would call a terminal hipster; vegan (but thought leather jackets were cool), straight-edge (but liked beer), and like shit horror movies from the 1980s.

I've never met anyone who even knows who Liturgy is so I'm in a position to make a clear evaluation of their music without pretense or prejudice. Evidently though they are quite resented by super badass hessians.

Re: New Underground Wave
August 23, 2013, 06:47:55 PM
Even ignoring all of that the music is poor, no possible mastery of technique or quirk of songwriting can make up for such a gross deficiency. Though as far as songwriting is concerned, extremely long winded and maudlin; seemingly interesting happy objects appear and disappear, loudly proclaiming their own importance without any substance. Airy fairy stuff that they dont believe in or even perhaps understand. It is all pretense. I dont know what Liturgy look like but I can imagine a couple of smooth college graduate looking kids in yuppie gear, their music screams it.

Edit: Might as well go into some detail I suppose: There is also little of what this website calls `phrasal` songwriting. A Liturgy song is difficult to assemble in your head as a coherent `melody` (basically musical forms progressing as idea). When you do it sucks anyway. It instead tends to use rock harmonic or purely rhythmic techniques. This alone doesnt really take it outside the boundary of metal, as a lot of shitty modern metal tends to do that as well. Contrast with an Incantation song, you are able to `whistle` that in your head, assemble it as a coherent structure, no matter how chaotic or chromatic it is. This is even possible with polyphonic classical music, like the fugue; despite polyphony one is able to grasp melodic threads and follow their progression. Liturgy`s music is absent in this (to a degree), but that is only one of its many faults. Meshuggah is a band in a different style that has a similar problem. There is a great thread on this forum which I dont know if you have read, but it may shed some light on the objective weakness of Liturgy from the perspective of this website: http://www.deathmetal.org/forum/index.php/topic,13816.0.html /Edit

Their deficiency is the lack of any unifying meaning or purpose to the music beyond an exercize in the superficial. Are post-rock and black metal techniques really that interesting or outre? I simply cant imagine the kind of feat Liturgy must accomplish to make up for what is wrong with them. It isnt just not metal, it is ironic meaningless pop culture distilled, the kind of thing metal is supposed to be against. No poseurs.

I did read Hunter Hunt-Hendrix`s Transcendental Black Metal pamphlet though. I think it is required reading for any student of hipsterdom. It isnt a joke for these guys! That said no offense to you here dead last, it is just baffling. Either that or I am easily confoundable.

You know speaking of technique in black metal I do wish someone would try and copy pure holocaust and blizzard beasts.

Re: New Underground Wave
August 26, 2013, 04:01:36 PM
Throwing in lazy post-rock influences just 'cause it's hip to.

Versus careful, meaningful inclusion of post-rock influences? Do you have an artist/group in mind?

I've always thought the sprinklings of post-rock in Weakling's sound were tasteful. Additionally I hear a bit of post-rock in Filosofem, and that is more than tasteful. People around here seem to like My Bloody Valentine and Killing Joke; both of those bands were part of the 'post' movement (I'm not really a fan of either).

Usually though, it's haphazard. I just described it as lazy to hammer the point home.

As an aside - at least Notorious B.I.G. was genuine; as doofy and boorish as his music (and he) was. That gives him a leg up over Liturgy.