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Judging music

Judging music
September 21, 2013, 02:58:39 PM
There are two recurring controversies about metal that just won't go away. First is categorizing and second is quality.

Death metal for example will have a specific set of features that make it precisely what it is. If these features are each present and well represented then that death metal is worth our while.

If but some of the features are present among others, we don't have death metal. I think this is what confuses some people.

Roughly, we could say it is each of A and B and C and D that make up death metal. Any of A or B or C or D plus other stuff if you want to stand out is something else, perhaps instead it is deathcore, or maybe it is Justin Bieber with a bad case of laryngitis.

When death metal stands out, it isn't because features E through Z were possibly also included but because each of A through D were well executed. I think this can give us a case for objectivity in standards of categorization and quality music against claims that criticism and reviews are just a matter of personal opinion.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Judging music
September 21, 2013, 04:44:32 PM
For me, a good music is a innovator music, Deathcore musicians think that Death Metal is only about death, there isn't any metaphor, any other meaning?

This happen with the Punk, every single "new" Punk are imitating Discharge, Black Flag, The Exploited, these new bands are saying: "Anarchy, Fuck Capitalism, Anti Fascism"; they don't create nothing, they think that they are "Independents" and "Revolutionaries". In the exactly time that they discovers the lack of success of their music, they hide in the underground label.

These new Hardcore bands are too idiots, I found a music named "Niilismo" (nihilism in portuguese, the band is brazilian of course), with this lyrics:
Quote
"I don't believe in nothing
I don't believe in nothing
I don't believe in nothing
Because I believe in Nihilism"
(translated).

This is dumb music.
From Brazil

Re: Judging music
September 23, 2013, 06:58:25 PM
This is an interesting project that my rational-critical aspect tells is doomed to failure. Nevertheless.

What are some good starting points for criteria for qualifiying metal? I suspect that examples A, B, C, and D are more complex than blastbeats, distorted and downtuned guitar, inaudible bass guitar, brutal vokills, etc.

Did you have anything in mind? Or were you looking for suggestions?

Re: Judging music
September 23, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
There are definitely more than basic technical elements to be sure. Hence the use of variables in place of specified features. The main point is the application of Boolean logic to the features, whatever they may be.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Judging music
September 23, 2013, 09:50:13 PM
Well then you have two challenges, nothing short of a Herculean undertaking.

First, we need to define those variables. And that's going to take someone (or several someones) very well-versed in "metal theory" and history.

Then, you just need a basic flowchart, send the music you are analyzing through a series of (increasingly stringent) yes/no gates, if that is indeed what you mean by applying Boolean logic.

The second part is fine, nothing can really go wrong once you have that in place, but it's the first part that will make or break the utility of this system.

I can see this working very well for identifying a music-maker's specific genre (and would be fun to run music from different eras of metal through) but the hard part is still objectifying those elements which make good music.

I guess the beginning is a place to start; it should be an "is it even metal?" gate (or series of gates) to automatically filter our non-metal. You can get as complex as you want after that, but setting up a filter from the get-go is difficult enough.

Re: Judging music
September 23, 2013, 09:57:58 PM
If we can filter out non-metal with digital logic within ten or twelve gates, I'll be wholly impressed.

After that, you need to send the music down its appropriate path (black, death, speed etc.) so that you are not applying those "qualifying elements" to music of the wrong genre. If you can figure out how to filter metal-from-non-metal, then this part should not be any more complicated.

Of course that means identifying qualifying elements for all of the genres that you want to be able to send through your nifty little system here. It would be more straightforward to make judgment calls on our own and say "this is obviously death metal" and at once know where to start sending it through the filters but I get that this whole experiment is for the sake of proving objective quality in music so obviously using our brains is out.

Re: Judging music
September 23, 2013, 10:04:03 PM
Yeah that's pretty much the entire overview. Once the logic flow is worked out, I could see a computer program classifying and quantifying individual songs, albums, even whole discographies to properly match bands to genres. The idea wouldn't be to actually utilize the program but to ensure the integrity of the logical flow from input to output.

Nothing beats having a reviewer with a proven set of standards. Pretentious reviewers out there can be weeded out with these tools along with poor music they may waste our time with. Likewise, good reviewers would gain credibility along with the artists they support.

Of course that means identifying qualifying elements for all of the genres that you want to be able to send through your nifty little system here.

Tone and frequency range are measurable (e.g.)
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Judging music
September 24, 2013, 12:26:29 AM
Nothing beats having a reviewer with a proven set of standards. Pretentious reviewers out there can be weeded out with these tools along with poor music they may waste our time with. Likewise, good reviewers would gain credibility along with the artists they support.

I like that idea. I trust certain reviewers and recommendations of like-minded listeners. With the new Gorguts I heard one or two songs and couldn't be bothered. The damning review it received here further cemented the opinion that it wasn't worth my time and probable eventual dissatisfaction.

The only thing I can see getting in the way is genre/style diversification. The criteria that would apply to top tier death-metal probably can't easily be applied to black-metal, even though some black-metal albums might be better.

Also the level of subjectivity inherent in the listening experience. Take for example that some ultra-technical death-metal came along which blew all other previous attempts out of the water, I might acknowledge that it's largely considered to be a classic but if I'm into raw, fast or atmospheric stuff it probably won't match up with my own belief of what is best.

Re: Judging music
September 24, 2013, 01:00:14 AM
The only thing I can see getting in the way is genre/style diversification. The criteria that would apply to top tier death-metal probably can't easily be applied to black-metal, even though some black-metal albums might be better.

The Boolean gates start to multiply exponentially. We could just have something a human brain can determine faster than the microprocessor.

Quote
Also the level of subjectivity inherent in the listening experience. Take for example that some ultra-technical death-metal came along which blew all other previous attempts out of the water, I might acknowledge that it's largely considered to be a classic but if I'm into raw, fast or atmospheric stuff it probably won't match up with my own belief of what is best.

It would be a series of Herculean labors to prove good or poor taste before the gallery.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Judging music
September 24, 2013, 02:00:20 PM
Aquarius' point about preference in death metal: We would need a way to describe the music more precisely after it filters through the "death" path. Obviously something like Death or Bloodbath is going to sound different enough from Suffocation or Disgorge, so we'll need to branch out even more to discern whether it's more traditional, technical, brutal, doomy, or whatever. That way you have a better general idea of what you're about to listen to, and you can avoid technical stuff if you favor more straightforward stuff. Also we would be more closely comparing those different subgenres within the genre of "death" which would be helpful, especially if you are searching for something in such and such a specific style (or sub-genre).

Re: Judging music
September 25, 2013, 12:40:18 PM
I suggest the clinal model used for populations. There's an apex population that is pure, and outliers as one approaches near-relatives.

For example, death metal is suspended between near relatives: progressive rock, hardcore punk, heavy metal and whatever we call the DCD/KW wing.

Further, I suggest that logic gates may not be the solution here. I would instead look at the attributes, how they combine to present an idea, define that as spirit, and show how all attempts to express that will lead to certain roughly similar concepts.

Re: Judging music
September 25, 2013, 04:46:04 PM
These new Hardcore bands are too idiots, I found a music named "Niilismo" (nihilism in portuguese, the band is brazilian of course), with this lyrics:
Quote
"I don't believe in nothing
I don't believe in nothing
I don't believe in nothing
Because I believe in Nihilism"
(translated).

This is dumb music.

Those lyrics are profoundly stupid. "I don't believe in nothing" is a double negative. So he doesn't believe in nothing? Doesn't sound very nihilistic to me.

I swear there's no point to anyone making hardcore past the early 1990s. It's time has passed.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Judging music
September 25, 2013, 05:52:36 PM
So nihilistic, he doesn't even believe in lack of belief!

Re: Judging music
September 25, 2013, 06:35:41 PM
So nihilistic, he doesn't even believe in lack of belief!

zomg soooo hardcore. Who BELIEVES in things anymore? Psh, phillistines. :takes puff of cigarette while looking smug:

I guess I just don't "get it".
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Judging music
September 25, 2013, 06:52:00 PM
Yes, this dudes take anachy, nihilism and atheism thinking that is the same thing.They neither search what is nihilism, or anarchy, or atheism. They possible use wikipedia or they just wanna appear as a punk (because they don't are).
From Brazil