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Multivitamins

Re: Multivitamins
October 09, 2013, 01:28:06 AM
Part of the problem with multivitamins and dietary supplements in general is that the products they produce are not regulated for content, only for safety.

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Generally, manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA or get FDA approval before producing or selling dietary supplements. Manufacturers must make sure that product label information is truthful and not misleading.
http://www.fda.gov/food/dietarysupplements/

They get around claim/function claims by saying a supplement "may help with" a certain health aspect, but carefully refrains from saying that the supplement will actually do anything.

Supplements are used in healthcare settings sometimes and do have uses in certain situations under medical supervision, but the majority of people buying multivitamins and other supplements are buying them because they "read something" that sounds plausible, but doesn't have any strong evidence showing the function that people are looking for. You may hear how much better someone feels after taking a multivitamin, but it's likely placebo, unless they are horrifically deficient; in which case they have bigger problems anyways.

Re: Multivitamins
October 09, 2013, 04:52:07 PM
I'm noticing a plethora of immunization injections getting promoted everywhere as well. Tell me that isn't mostly a bunch of unnecessary hype for profit.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793


Re: Multivitamins
October 21, 2013, 01:59:54 AM
(alcoholism e.g.)

They are flawed in principle though, the principle is wrong.

I think the "added insult" point is pretty key. See: the West. High intake of sugars, sometimes stemming from physiological impulses related to chronic stress, which are in turn paired with sleep problems. Sugars are highly available for cheap, and few people know enough to tell you that they're total garbage.

Overabundance of (stupidity re:) anything can kill you, even water-soluble Vitamin Bs. Vitamin deficiencies are indeed, often the result of extreme deprivation as well - and it is in these instances where select, high dosages of vitamins and minerals have practical, therapeutic applications. Out of curiosity, what do those here think of medicine in general? Certainly it is a complex topic.

I periodically review my posts and pick apart my writing, minor though it may be. My reply quoted is not particularly relevant to the issue you brought up.

Regarding the "principle" -- certain aspects of most readily available foods are less nutrient-rich (supposedly in part due to generations of industrial farming practices), and lifestyle doesn't necessarily allow for moderately consistent, good nutrition. An occasional, reasonably-dosed multivitamin can be a helpful supplement in this case. Please describe to me your understanding of how multivitamins are flawed "in principle", since I'm certain we have different ideas about this.


aquarius:

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The researchers followed them up to see which ones developed prostate cancer.
The results, published in the International Journal Of Cancer, show that total antioxidant intake – from foods or pills – neither increased nor decreased the risk of a tumour. Antioxidants fight the process, called oxidation, that destroys cells.
There was some suggestion antioxidants from coffee had a slightly protective effect.
But the most alarming finding was that men with the highest intake of antioxidants from vitamin pills were 28 per cent more likely to get lethal prostate cancer than those who took the lowest amount of pills or none.

Again, excess.


I disagree:

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Supplements are used in healthcare settings sometimes and do have uses in certain situations under medical supervision, but the majority of people buying multivitamins and other supplements are buying them because they "read something" that sounds plausible, but doesn't have any strong evidence showing the function that people are looking for. You may hear how much better someone feels after taking a multivitamin, but it's likely placebo, unless they are horrifically deficient; in which case they have bigger problems anyways.

"Supplements" covers a broad range of substances from herbs, to "nutraceuticals", to bodybuilding supplements. There is a vast world of uneducated, misleading, or downright false advertising that surrounds 99% of products because, as far as this discussion is concerned, they are a business. While I do find this type of behavior reprehensible, I also have sort of a hard time finding sympathy for those that take the bait - hook, line, and sinker.

Generally speaking, if the product in question is a derivative (amino acid, vitamin, mineral, antioxidant, etc), it may not be advisable for long-term use, under extreme circumstances, or in high doses without consulting a trusted medical professional. Many herbal products have a long history of use, and can be much safer to use, but still they should not be used in high-doses without taking the appropriate precautions.

I personally find a lot of things in herbal medicine very appealing. A lot of the stuff is free (grow plants, forage for mushrooms, etc.), and natural in the most literal sense, with hundreds, if not thousands of years oh historical use.

Re: Multivitamins
October 21, 2013, 08:31:47 PM

I disagree:

 Many herbal products have a long history of use, and can be much safer to use, but still they should not be used in high-doses without taking the appropriate precautions.

I personally find a lot of things in herbal medicine very appealing. A lot of the stuff is free (grow plants, forage for mushrooms, etc.), and natural in the most literal sense, with hundreds, if not thousands of years oh historical use.

I've found that although herbals have a long history of use, the ones you find on the shelf do not resemble, and are not used in the same context as they have been pre-industrialization. So it would be difficult to expect them to have the same effect as they had before. Many of them interfere with medications that did not exist previously, which is why it is wise to consult a healthcare professional before taking them. Some of them may just be placebo, not that I am discounting that. Sometimes placebos work just as well as a supplement or drug if not better, because of the person's belief and attitude toward the treatment actually producing positive effects in the body.

Re: Multivitamins
October 21, 2013, 10:50:03 PM
Guys, if you really wanna get healthy I suggest you go on a William S Burroughs style journey into the jungles of South America, drink some ayahuasca tea under the care of a shaman, and detoxify your pineal gland.
His Majesty at the Swamp / Black Arts Lead to Everlasting Sins / Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism / Oath of Black Blood / Privilege of Evil / Dawn of Possession / In Battle There is No Law / Thousand Swords / To Mega Therion

Re: Multivitamins
October 21, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
I've found that although herbals have a long history of use, the ones you find on the shelf do not resemble, and are not used in the same context as they have been pre-industrialization. So it would be difficult to expect them to have the same effect as they had before. Many of them interfere with medications that did not exist previously, which is why it is wise to consult a healthcare professional before taking them. Some of them may just be placebo, not that I am discounting that. Sometimes placebos work just as well as a supplement or drug if not better, because of the person's belief and attitude toward the treatment actually producing positive effects in the body.

Out of curiosity, what products/brands are you referring to, and what are some examples of the relationship to the "pre-industrial context" you mentioned (apart from possible drug interactions, or strength)?

Herbal medicine I tend to think of in the DIY respect as mentioned, not necessarily in store-bought supplements, though I failed to make that distinction in my post. Definitely any interactions with medication can be of concern, and certainly some herbs are dangerous on their own - like Kava Kava.

It's probably clear at this point that I think the "Wild West" situation with supplements via the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act ain't all bad. Maybe you have more personal experiences with it than I do.

Re: Multivitamins
October 22, 2013, 12:54:38 AM

Out of curiosity, what products/brands are you referring to, and what are some examples of the relationship to the "pre-industrial context" you mentioned (apart from possible drug interactions, or strength)?

Herbal medicine I tend to think of in the DIY respect as mentioned, not necessarily in store-bought supplements, though I failed to make that distinction in my post. Definitely any interactions with medication can be of concern, and certainly some herbs are dangerous on their own - like Kava Kava.

It's probably clear at this point that I think the "Wild West" situation with supplements via the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act ain't all bad. Maybe you have more personal experiences with it than I do.

All I am saying is that before people started eating industrialized food, being exposed to modern diseases, maybe herbs had some healing effects, i.e. cinnamon's effect of lowering, blood sugars, Kava Kava's effect on blood pressure or stress, and oregano Oil's positive effect on immunization and digestion. But as a lot of these conditions have often grown in strength and have to compete against all the other toxic shit we eat and breathe, they may not be very helpful. Conversely, I think the potency of many of these herbal supplements are in doses that were never seen pre-industrialization. So to say that certain herbs have been used for hundreds or thousands of years is slightly misleading, because people until recently never experienced these herbs at the dosages they are currently sold at.

Re: Multivitamins
October 22, 2013, 06:15:15 PM
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Meet the Google executive who plans to cheat death: Ray Kurzweil takes 150 vitamins a day so he can 'hold out long enough for invention of robots that will keep humans alive'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2467514/Ray-Kurzweil-shares-plans-immortality.html

lol

Re: Multivitamins
October 22, 2013, 07:07:53 PM
Ray Kurzweil is no idiot. This article makes him look eccentric and disconnected from reality. I'm pretty sure he is taking 150 types of nutrients and vitamins, not actually swallowing 150 pills every day like the article seems to imply (with the image of the handful of capsules and pills). For all we know, it's all included in one or two capsules.

You can laugh at him if you are inclined but I don't really see a reason to. He is expecting to accomplish things that few people can fathom let alone invent and integrate into every day life. Nanotechnology is promising, and before too long will be a handy way of treating the brain where current medical techniques can't help without causing a lot of collateral damage; http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/770396

Of course there is the issue of dead nanamachines floating around, inaccesable behind the BBB but hey it's a good start.

Re: Multivitamins
October 22, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/770396

I need to register to be able to view that page.

There aren't 150 types of nutrients. There's only 13 vitamins for humans. There's other types of nutrients too but in total it's not even half of 150. I'm guessing they mean 150 times the normal dose of vitamins since that's what these "treatments" are usually about.

"Kurzweil has previously predicted that by the late 2020s humans will be able to eat as much junk food as they want because everyone will have a nanobot injected into their bodies that will provide all the necessary nutrients while simultaneously eliminating fat."
What a disgusting vision of the future.

Re: Multivitamins
October 22, 2013, 11:14:37 PM
He has always struck me as more dreamer than realist but an interesting idealist nonetheless. His accelerating returns theory isn't actually taking place. Inorganic consciousness for immortality is just dumb. Breed better people instead.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Multivitamins
October 23, 2013, 12:11:27 AM
Kurzweil is half of the classic kooky genius, sort of like Linus Pauling. You can be sure Pauling`s vitamin viewpoints came about because he was such a brilliant, unorthodox thinker and trailblaizer. It comes with the territory. Just like Einstein`s views on quantum theory. Kurzweil however, doesnt have the genius part, he is just a kook :)

The liberal positivism of his views also grates on me, though he seems affable enough.

Re: Multivitamins
October 23, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
His vision might be disconcerting and you can lament the darkness on humanity's horizon till the cows come home but he is one of the few people actually pushing toward a future at all. Personally I am repulsed at the idea of nanomachines defiling the chemistry of my body but Kurzweil has already figured out what we know; humanity (as it stands) aint gonna take care of itself.

Re: Multivitamins
December 17, 2013, 02:05:54 AM
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The studies found that popping a daily multivitamin didn't ward off heart problems or memory loss, and wasn't tied to a longer life span.

The studies, published in the Dec. 17 issue of the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, found that multivitamin and mineral supplements did not work any better than placebo pills.

Dietary supplements are a multibillion-dollar industry in the United States, and multivitamins account for nearly half of all vitamin sales, according to the U.S. Office of Dietary Supplements.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/news/20131216/experts-dont-waste-your-money-on-multivitamins

This is all par for the course regarding many pharmaceuticals and much of the current health care industry in the US. The industries are primarily revenue generating devices and only secondarily working toward anything else.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793