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Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate

Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 22, 2013, 09:59:30 AM
Obscura is an exciting and futuristic exploration.  It was written by Gorguts the year RIGHT after The Erosion of Sanity came out.  It has all kinds of sounds, structural variation and sound experiments.  But in my opinion it is also over-extended to the point of redundancy and sometimes lacking (or making me feel it lacks) enough development of some ideas.

"From Wisdom to Hate" is matured Gorguts. Best album by this band.

Too subtle for even most fans of the band to appreciate as their most refined work. Most get distracted by the over-abundant (and redundant) fireworks that Obscura present them with and fail to see how it falls short of the directed and concise work of art "From Wisdom to Hate" is.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 22, 2013, 05:43:58 PM
It took me a long time to "get" FWTH. It is very consistently structured, not predictable, not virtuousic to the extent of flashy. Still, not as warped or spirit-stirring as the first two albums. More solidly composed, perhaps, but is too intellectually distanced from the guts and gristle that was Considered Dead.

Obscura is either shallower than everyone makes it out to be, or so impenetrably deep that I still haven't wrapped my mind around it. Every time I come back and give it another listen, I feel like the way in which I was trying to judge it before was wrong, and I have to start from scratch. Maybe that is the power of Obscura.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 06:40:22 AM
It took me a long time to "get" FWTH. It is very consistently structured, not predictable, not virtuousic to the extent of flashy. Still, not as warped or spirit-stirring as the first two albums. More solidly composed, perhaps, but is too intellectually distanced from the guts and gristle that was Considered Dead.

Yes, I feel it is something similar to Altars of Madness versus Blessed are the Sick.

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Obscura is either shallower than everyone makes it out to be, or so impenetrably deep that I still haven't wrapped my mind around it.

That's what i thought at fist too.
At the present I can listen to it pleasantly and I think I can appreciate it greatly. I still continue to listen to it and my impression of it is as a rough diamond.  A jagged-shaped and in a way not proportional natural beauty.  FWtH brings human intellect, measure, sense of proportion and measure into that and crafts that rough diamond.


This is what Luc Lemay has said about it (more than once):

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When we sat down to write for "Obscura" we deliberately made an effort to not do such things as the fast Slayer beats, no more fast picking riffs and other ideas found on our second album "Erosion to Sanity". So we forced ourselves to create a new musical language to use for "Obscura" but that album was just a first draft of this new language if you will. It's like a child learning a language for the first time, the will to express themselves is there but the outcome is somewhat simplistic at first. But with "From Wisdom to Hate" and now "Colored Sands", we have more experience with this new language and therefore can better express ourselves with a widened vocabulary than on our first attempt back on the "Obscura" album. I think that's why people who have just heard "Colored Sands" first then going backwards in our catalog don't hear the albums the same way as when they each came out.

I do think that the new album lacks a metal direction and that 50% of it feels like filler to me, though.
Apart from that, that is his personal view on what Obscura was. 
And I completely agree with it when I hear FWtH after it.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 08:52:38 AM
I find FWTH more impressive than Obscura. It is slightly more direct, and delivers its payload more efficiently. There are some ripping songs. There is more of a classical influence.

Obscura doesn't resolve enough. There are not enough conclusions.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 09:16:20 AM
i listened to Obscura on mushrooms one time. I remember they were just kicking in and i was outside walking around in the woods at about 11ishpm and the rain was coming down like crazy.  I had a vision of a man turning into a beast and expressing both his/its pains and pleasures through the album, it made sense to me that the album is the relation between man and beast.  I would file this under Death Metal Study 101.
He who fears the dark, shall never see the light
http://www.last.fm/user/Beastofsodom

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 10:07:31 AM
That would have been an experience!

Having said my above, I love both albums.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 10:30:09 AM
I find FWTH more impressive than Obscura. It is slightly more direct, and delivers its payload more efficiently. There are some ripping songs. There is more of a classical influence.

Obscura doesn't resolve enough. There are not enough conclusions.

Thank you. I need to learn to verbalize my impressions more efficiently.
You describe my precise thoughts the first few times I listened to Obscura after I was able to bear its aesthetics.
At the moment I enjoy the album more than ever, but what you just said remains my impartial opinion of it.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 06:11:08 PM
I liked FWTH for a time but years later I have no interest at all in listening to it. Prior to the newest album, it was the only item in their catalog I avoided.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 24, 2013, 06:14:33 PM
I have no interest at all in listening to it. Prior to the newest album, it was the only item in their catalog I avoided.

That's their debut album for me...

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 25, 2013, 02:41:14 AM
I have no interest at all in listening to it. Prior to the newest album, it was the only item in their catalog I avoided.

That's their debut album for me...

That's too bad, dude, I strongly recommend listening first to Considered Dead and Erosion of Sanity. They have the totally irrational and frightening feeling of being sped through a maze of huge and dangerous objects. FWTH gives me a similar feeling, but more like I can clearly see ahead at the path laid out for me, so I can appreciate the craftmanship that created it. Still not as intense as the first two albums.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 25, 2013, 10:34:12 AM


That's too bad, dude, I strongly recommend listening first to Considered Dead and Erosion of Sanity. They have the totally irrational and frightening feeling of being sped through a maze of huge and dangerous objects. FWTH gives me a similar feeling, but more like I can clearly see ahead at the path laid out for me, so I can appreciate the craftmanship that created it. Still not as intense as the first two albums.

That's definitely true, about intensity.  But intensity is not everything I look for in music, but I appreciate intense releases.  I appreciate FWtH for its strong points and enjoy it for them too. 
I am really into The Erosion of Sanity.  I really like its unpredictability.  But I somehow cannot get into Considered Dead. I somehow even have trouble remembering the songs in it.  I should listen to it more attentively, I think.

One final remark on Obscura, I think it does have a lot of flaws but what makes it great is something most of its fans cannot even really distinguish, IMO.  It is not its apparent technicality or dissonance (merely superficial aspects of it) which make it special but its that the final product strives to go beyond Metal as we know it while STILL REMAINING Metal in spirit. That is probably the true reason why Obscura feels like such a mammoth.  Besides the compositional lack of control shown in that album, I think I would make the album end on the 6th track.  Everything after it is rehashing of ideas, even if those songs are cool too.  I say Clouded is a very valuable track in that album.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 25, 2013, 03:43:33 PM
All I can say to this is Nay. From Wisdom... does not compare to Obscura. Yes, it is more subtle than it initially appears. Yes, it shows some refinement (that obviously comes with age and practice). But muscially? Conceptually? Need bitterman to explain this, he wrote some great stuff about Obscura somewhere that I will try and find (though I will probably fail :( ).

Obscura is not overextended, Obscura is not filled with fireworks or whatever. Just under its dissonance is the very same (beautiful) voice that was on Erosion of Sanity, only slightly matured and extended. Obscura is not merely an experiment, it is fully realized and FWth is the compromise that followed when they probably (rightfully) guessed that they could never top it. I am quite surprised to see this opinion expressed here. Perhaps I am wrong and need to give the later album more time, though I do enjoy it quite a bit and listen to it on occasion, but Obscura I could listen to every day.

I dont intend to argue the superiority of Obscura, but I would like to see input from some more of us. This is quite a claim.

Edit: Perhaps I can summarize; everything I have found on FWth is in Obscura, only less so in the former album. I use this word a lot, but it is very appropriate for that album I think... Normed. From Wisdom is Obscura normed. Do give it more time, please.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 27, 2013, 03:26:52 AM

Edit: Perhaps I can summarize; everything I have found on FWth is in Obscura, only less so in the former album. I use this word a lot, but it is very appropriate for that album I think... Normed. From Wisdom is Obscura normed. Do give it more time, please.

I am, and I through discussion and re-listening I have come to appreciate Obscura more.
And I think you are right, the end product, musically, Obscura is definitely superior, somehow. Its trascendental nature, in my opinion comes through as a very important aspect, for me.

I just think that Obscura is not mature, and what a perfect thing would've been to have Obscura's expression and development harnessed, understood and balanced as FWtH is without being limited by it as that latter album is.

Re: Obscura vrs From Wisdom to Hate
December 27, 2013, 01:17:45 PM
Fair comment.