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The way things never were - The way things will never be

Ideas are worthless unless they result in things working, or at least working better than they did.
By that criteria, many, many ideas are worthless. The hypothetical is a purely what-if realm.
Unfortunately, it can take a long time for it to become clear just how bad an idea is, once employed, and often by the time that happens, the damage done can be irreversible.
Which is exactly why conservatives 'cling to' ways of doing things that have historically been proved to work.
A drowning man clings to anything that might save him, and you can easily see why.

No realistic thinker would ever actually claim a 'golden age' existed in the past. None have.
But things often worked adequately well that they were, and remain, worth conserving.


To be clear:

Is there value in individual liberties such as property rights, right to bear arms, protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

Such topics can never be clear once any given society has unraveled past a certain point.
Liberty is only as useful or as valuable as those to whom it is extended.
Nothing is useful or valuable once the members of a society have ceased to esteem that society.
When there ceases to be - in the minds of individuals - anything greater than themselves, then all is lost, including any determination of what constitutes value.




Granted, but are the items listed valuable to you?

So it would follow that our world is the result of our spirits. If the modern world is soulless and blighted that should inform us about the spirits of those who shape and impact it. When spirits are broken by modern life, a cycle has begun.

Indeed. It's surprising that the Enlightenment dream is still as strong as it is amidst the bleak civilization it left.

To be clear:

Is there value in individual liberties such as property rights, right to bear arms, protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

A lot of that is from ancient Anglo Saxon common law. You don't want a false accusation from a bad neighbor to bring blind justice crashing down on your household. I don't know what to make of the Magna Carta restatement but the constitutional re-restatements grew alongside the birth of statism. There are plenty of examples of life in modern nation states where such protections are denied.

Vigilance: You ask for an opinion? I have none to offer.
But here is some insight into how I default to feeling about such things...

I have never had the slightest interest in 'rights'. I actually don't even understand what such things are. It seems to me that they are figments of peoples' imaginations. They have no existence, in reality.

The only thing I've really ever held as being of great importance is the ability to leave town when the town falls apart. And now you have caused me to consider it, I would say that I would rather have no rights at all, if it meant I could at least rely on somebody who knew WTF they were doing, being in charge.

In short, I don't give a toss about me, as long as It is in good hands.

Good hands. Like Pat Jennings: Northern Ireland goalkeeper. A still-living legend :)



To be clear:

Is there value in individual liberties such as property rights, right to bear arms, protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

A lot of that is from ancient Anglo Saxon common law. You don't want a false accusation from a bad neighbor to bring blind justice crashing down on your household. I don't know what to make of the Magna Carta restatement but the constitutional re-restatements grew alongside the birth of statism. There are plenty of examples of life in modern nation states where such protections are denied.

The way I look at it at this point: Entangled origins aside, are these items worth holding onto? Y,N?

Incorporationism, such as it applies to rights and statism, is probably the largest issue with rights in the US and unquestionably belongs in the trash. 

Vigilance: You ask for an opinion? I have none to offer.
But here is some insight into how I default to feeling about such things...

I have never had the slightest interest in 'rights'. I actually don't even understand what such things are. It seems to me that they are figments of peoples' imaginations. They have no existence, in reality.

The only thing I've really ever held as being of great importance is the ability to leave town when the town falls apart. And now you have caused me to consider it, I would say that I would rather have no rights at all, if it meant I could at least rely on somebody who knew WTF they were doing, being in charge.

In short, I don't give a toss about me, as long as It is in good hands.

Good hands. Like Pat Jennings: Northern Ireland goalkeeper. A still-living legend :)

The idea of natural rights is just that, an idea. No basis in anything outside the values of civilization. Then, being within the fabric of a civilization certainly makes them real all the same.

Are you saying that a delusion is real? As in reality?
You see, this is why I speak so much about the nature of reality.
A delusion is a delusion. Reality is reality.
Delusions are what people specialize in piling over the top of reality, while reality itself does not change.
Which is exactly what is wrecking society.
If reality is viewed as something so easily changed, what foundation is there?


The idea that man has rights given to him by his creator is a delusion. Our constitutional rights are real things, now. Unless they are devaluated and cast aside. Once they have no effects, they'll cease to be real.

I am of the view that nothing dreamed up by Man is reality, unless Man evolves into something capable of working within reality, thus becoming an extension of it.
Man has the capability, buried deep down, to be Godlike in a limited way.
But he has chosen instead to play at being God, in contrast to Godlike, with the results you are familiar with.
It is a fine distinction which can have far reaching effects.
Distinction or extinction.
Free will.

 

In the interests of not repeating past conversations I think we can put a cap on this one.

Repetition is a fact of life. It can drive you nuts, or refine things down.
A point that escapes most is that words typed into a forum post get read by more than just the participating users.

I need to recharge. We can discuss it in the future.