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Crimea 2014

Crimea 2014
March 03, 2014, 11:43:18 PM
Any thoughts on the crisis that's unfolding at the moment? I was trying to find some information but so far all I've come across is the big media and rantings by the everyman about how Russia is taking advantage of Ukraine's instability and of course that, we, the morally-good democratic countries of the world can't allow this to happen.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 04, 2014, 01:59:57 AM
This is the same overarching story as with Iran and Syria along with the smaller tug of wars in Africa. The major West and East global powers are engaged in worldwide local struggles over proxy control of high resource or trade routes therein.

One condemns the other as un-democratic and the other calls its opponent immoral hypocrite. In the event the major powers clash, they each want such justifications in place to maintain public support.

Quote
The U.S, announced late Monday it was suspending trade and investment talks with Russia as well as all "military-to-military engagements" as penalties for its actions in Ukraine.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/03/obama-threatens-to-isolate-russia-on-ukraine-though-few-back-military-option/

Re: Crimea 2014
March 04, 2014, 02:28:09 AM
It's all grimly amusing, really, the sheer scale of the hypocrisy involved, especially on the part of the West.
Every nation, quoth obama, has the right to determine its own destiny, without interference from outside.
While the West interferes from the outside, while Russia attempts to determine its own destiny...




Re: Crimea 2014
March 04, 2014, 04:53:37 PM
It's all grimly amusing, really, the sheer scale of the hypocrisy involved, especially on the part of the West.
Every nation, quoth obama, has the right to determine its own destiny, without interference from outside.
While the West interferes from the outside, while Russia attempts to determine its own destiny...

John Kerry just gave us, "You can't invade another country on a trumped up pretext."

Incidentally, from US CentCom's website:




Re: Crimea 2014
March 04, 2014, 07:23:52 PM
Yeah I guess he was referring to Georgia. The East didn't seem to put up an argument when it was just Iraq and Afghanistan on the line but they seem to be taking notice of what's going on now.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 05, 2014, 12:49:06 AM
I'd also add that the Russians have pretty much been an imperial people since the day they first emerged into conscious existence as a nation, while the Ukrainians have pretty much always been a subject people.  That's one of those iron truths of history, and it's why Ukraine has no real history as an independent state: it is and has always been an appendage of the Russian Empire.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 05, 2014, 05:38:45 AM
If the world were a fair and equal and fluffy bunny place Ukraine and Afghanistan would be their backyard while places like Grenada and Cuba would be ours. In such a world you don't let the kids play or dogs out to crap in your neighbor's backyard. But it never was that kind of world.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 05, 2014, 10:13:01 PM
I'd also add that the Russians have pretty much been an imperial people since the day they first emerged into conscious existence as a nation, while the Ukrainians have pretty much always been a subject people.  That's one of those iron truths of history, and it's why Ukraine has no real history as an independent state: it is and has always been an appendage of the Russian Empire.

I used to think it was fair that every nation should have the right to it's own identity, but now (and especially with this situation) one would have to question whether that is even the case; don't all struggles for 'rights' seem as though they were inspired by some utopian dream originating in liberal mind-set?

Re: Crimea 2014
March 05, 2014, 10:27:14 PM
I'd also add that the Russians have pretty much been an imperial people since the day they first emerged into conscious existence as a nation, while the Ukrainians have pretty much always been a subject people.  That's one of those iron truths of history, and it's why Ukraine has no real history as an independent state: it is and has always been an appendage of the Russian Empire.

I used to think it was fair that every nation should have the right to it's own identity, but now (and especially with this situation) one would have to question whether that is even the case; don't all struggles for 'rights' seem as though they were inspired by some utopian dream originating in liberal mind-set?

I think that a basic set of civil liberties, like national sovereignty is something that a nation who desires such things to earn and conserve by their own hand. I don't see any reason to believe either is rooted in Utopian dreaming. Especially when you consider that a right to bear arms requires accepting the implicit risks of that right to ones personal safety. Many, like myself, view them as safeguards against abuse, not gatekeys to brighter pastures.  As the quote I gave in the thread on liberty mentions, in order to have the safeguards operational in a meaningful sense, the population must sacrifice individual autonomy, not make gains. If you look at the development of liberalism, it ran towards the contrary.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 05, 2014, 11:22:41 PM
I think that a basic set of civil liberties, like national sovereignty is something that a nation who desires such things to earn and conserve by their own hand. I don't see any reason to believe either is rooted in Utopian dreaming.

I agree with that if it is the case. But as Dylar mentioned, it simply isn't (or hasn't been) for the Ukraine. The truth of the matter is that many slavs (as far down as Yugoslavia) never had a problem with being a part of a larger empire (to whom Russia is like an interfering bigger brother that ultimately has your best interests at heart). It isn't until more recent times that every group within a nation had the idea to put their identity above all else. Call it a gut feeling, but I think liberalism very much encourages that.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 06, 2014, 01:31:29 AM
One thing I find fascinating about the liberal mind is how well it is able to insulate itself from the logical extensions of its cherished beliefs.  And so, the liberal demands "self-determination" for every tribe that demands its own flag, without ever stopping to think that this demand differs only in quality, not in kind, from, say, "Germany for Germans."

Re: Crimea 2014
March 06, 2014, 03:02:14 AM
There is an illusion of equality to maintain. The underdog/disadvantaged are to be supported, and the superior condemned.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 06, 2014, 03:45:48 AM
The subtext is always there as an unspoken conditional. Place X for X-ies while they are underdog. If X-ies are not underdog then place X is deemed borderless. It isn't really about self determination in principle but about public displays of vicarious pity. Displaying pity and other sorts of humanitarian emoting is the principle of liberalism. Condemnation and denouncement of the oppressor is the other side of the principled emoting coin.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 06, 2014, 04:16:34 PM
So, here's the funny thing. What sparked the whole current drama in Ukraine/Crimea was a fight over whether Ukraine would remain in the Russian "sphere of influence," or whether it would pass into the hands of the EU (essentially a mechanism for enforcing and extending German economic hegemony). The more things change, baby. Let's party like it's 1939.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 06, 2014, 05:01:49 PM
Russia is looking to copy the American model of franchisement. It makes sense, as putting countries under direct imperial management is expensive. The soviets learned it the hard way.