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Crimea 2014

Re: Crimea 2014
March 07, 2014, 04:09:04 AM
I think that a basic set of civil liberties, like national sovereignty is something that a nation who desires such things to earn and conserve by their own hand. I don't see any reason to believe either is rooted in Utopian dreaming.
The truth of the matter is that many slavs (as far down as Yugoslavia) never had a problem with being a part of a larger empire (to whom Russia is like an interfering bigger brother that ultimately has your best interests at heart).
If this is a rule, Poles are the exception, they were the most powerful Slavic nation for a few hundred years, vassalizing and conquering nearby tribes, then when it finally got partitioned in the late 18th century the conquerers had to deal with constant uprisings. The Poles after gaining their independence again fought back the Soviet horde, then in WWII they got over run by the Soviets and left for dead by their so called allies, then after the soviet era the have utterly rejected all Russian political advances.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 07, 2014, 06:36:07 AM
I think that a basic set of civil liberties, like national sovereignty is something that a nation who desires such things to earn and conserve by their own hand. I don't see any reason to believe either is rooted in Utopian dreaming.
The truth of the matter is that many slavs (as far down as Yugoslavia) never had a problem with being a part of a larger empire (to whom Russia is like an interfering bigger brother that ultimately has your best interests at heart).
If this is a rule, Poles are the exception, they were the most powerful Slavic nation for a few hundred years, vassalizing and conquering nearby tribes, then when it finally got partitioned in the late 18th century the conquerers had to deal with constant uprisings. The Poles after gaining their independence again fought back the Soviet horde, then in WWII they got over run by the Soviets and left for dead by their so called allies, then after the soviet era the have utterly rejected all Russian political advances.

This is true. They are very much their own people and have unfortunately had assholes either side of them throughout their history (a fact which if anything made their cultural identity even stronger).

Ironically though, an old friend of mine, who happens to be a very proud and patriotic Pole actually went to the trouble of learning the Russian language, which he maintains is purely out of interest and respect. I don't know if this attitude is all that common though.

As for Ukraine, Belarus etc. Who can even tell them apart from Russia?

Re: Crimea 2014
March 07, 2014, 11:17:12 AM
Think of the Polish-Lithuanian state as being equivalent to Vasa Sweden (that its monarchs were also drawn from the same dynasty only makes the comparison more apt).  That is to say that, like Sweden, Poland was capable of being an important, independent power so long as there was no stable, effective government in Germany or Russia.  The rise of the Hohenzollern state in Prussia and the emergence of the Romanov state in Muscovy pretty much ensured that Poland was doomed as an independent power.  It's instructive that the 'modern' Polish state reached its zenith in the 1920s, with Germany laid low under the provisions of Versailles and Russia still trying to overcome the effects of defeat, revolution and civil war.   

Re: Crimea 2014
March 07, 2014, 11:03:02 PM
Fuck Russia. 
Every Ukrianian I know wants them out of their country.  No matter what you intellectuals say about their roots the fact of the matter is Ukrainian people want their country to be free.  The fact that their government has been ridden by corruption and always influenced and sabotaged by Russian power and other foreign forces is a different matter.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 07, 2014, 11:26:59 PM
What is freedom?

Coca-cola?

McDonald's?

The privilege of having your laws decided for you in Brussels?

To say otherwise is to render yourself a demon.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 08, 2014, 05:39:50 AM
Fuck Russia. 
Every Ukrianian I know wants them out of their country.  No matter what you intellectuals say about their roots the fact of the matter is Ukrainian people want their country to be free.  The fact that their government has been ridden by corruption and always influenced and sabotaged by Russian power and other foreign forces is a different matter.

So the crowd wants independence?  I can't think of a better argument in favor of Russian dominion.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 11, 2014, 01:26:13 AM
Ukraine gave birth to Russia.  There was a state called Kievan Rus for a reason.  While Belarus is not so distinct from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary are very much distinct and share common ties to non-Slavic nations by either inception (Lithuania is Baltic, Hungary is Magyar), or by ancient relations as Poland and Ukraine were very much attached to Germanic peoples even though many of the people were Slavic.  Such a truth may upset nationalists and pan-Slavists, pan-Germanists, and pan-Turanists, but it is the reality.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 11, 2014, 03:04:00 PM
Ukraine gave birth to Russia.  There was a state called Kievan Rus for a reason.  While Belarus is not so distinct from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary are very much distinct and share common ties to non-Slavic nations by either inception (Lithuania is Baltic, Hungary is Magyar), or by ancient relations as Poland and Ukraine were very much attached to Germanic peoples even though many of the people were Slavic.  Such a truth may upset nationalists and pan-Slavists, pan-Germanists, and pan-Turanists, but it is the reality.

There's a flux to human nationality. Migration, colonialism, imperial expansion, slavery. All these mechanisms ensure that nationality is a fleeting thing.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 11, 2014, 04:35:07 PM
Fuck Russia. 
Every Ukrianian I know wants them out of their country.  No matter what you intellectuals say about their roots the fact of the matter is Ukrainian people want their country to be free.  The fact that their government has been ridden by corruption and always influenced and sabotaged by Russian power and other foreign forces is a different matter.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicamisener/people-in-crimea-are-taking-selfies-with-soldiers?s=mobile

They sure look like they hate those awful, imposing Ruskies.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 16, 2014, 04:00:38 AM
Fuck Russia. 
Every Ukrianian I know wants them out of their country.  No matter what you intellectuals say about their roots the fact of the matter is Ukrainian people want their country to be free.  The fact that their government has been ridden by corruption and always influenced and sabotaged by Russian power and other foreign forces is a different matter.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicamisener/people-in-crimea-are-taking-selfies-with-soldiers?s=mobile

They sure look like they hate those awful, imposing Ruskies.

Ethnic Russians are the majority in Crimea.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 16, 2014, 04:02:08 AM
Ukraine gave birth to Russia.  There was a state called Kievan Rus for a reason.  While Belarus is not so distinct from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary are very much distinct and share common ties to non-Slavic nations by either inception (Lithuania is Baltic, Hungary is Magyar), or by ancient relations as Poland and Ukraine were very much attached to Germanic peoples even though many of the people were Slavic.  Such a truth may upset nationalists and pan-Slavists, pan-Germanists, and pan-Turanists, but it is the reality.

There's a flux to human nationality. Migration, colonialism, imperial expansion, slavery. All these mechanisms ensure that nationality is a fleeting thing.

Yes, but in the case of these nations, their cores remain despite losses of territory.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 16, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
All these mechanisms ensure that nationality is a fleeting thing.

There are many pressures on everything on earth. If a thing does not resist, it is destroyed. That does not mean we should assume the destruction as a given.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 17, 2014, 01:00:13 AM
What is freedom?

Coca-cola?

McDonald's?

The privilege of having your laws decided for you in Brussels?

To say otherwise is to render yourself a demon.

Apples and oranges. The EU being a trainwreck doesn't make Russia a positive influence on the Ukraine. If this situation gives ethnic Ukrainians more autonomy it's a positive thing

Re: Crimea 2014
March 17, 2014, 03:59:07 AM
They voted secession from Ukraine. Are they going to be a new nation or a new state in Russia? If they're going for independence by way of the ballot then it would seem very odd for the democratic countries to talk about economic sanctions in response.

Re: Crimea 2014
March 17, 2014, 04:20:02 AM
They voted secession from Ukraine. Are they going to be a new nation or a new state in Russia? If they're going for independence by way of the ballot then it would seem very odd for the democratic countries to talk about economic sanctions in response.

The population is mostly Russian to begin with, but I think that they may devote an area for the Crimean Tatars as they have done for other ethnic minorities.  It does not mean much in practice, but I think that this is not going to be just the end of it all.  The Ukrainian government may cede the territory, but there has already been a call by radical religious forces to flock to Crimea from the Middle East and neighboring areas.  One can only hope it does not turn into a repeat of what happened in the Caucasus.