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Deleted post.

Re: Deleted post.
March 23, 2014, 10:19:02 PM
Hmm. Well, here's how I see it.

First off, the American ideal is not democracy, it's a constitutional representative republic, finding its fullest and best to date design and expression in the American School of economics. This is a highly intelligent, nuanced, idealistic-yet-realistic view. It is most definitely not democratic, at all. If you want to talk "historical fact", then name me ONE democracy in ALL of history. You can not find one. They don't exist. Democracy is always a lie, a con, a swindle, a manipulating the masses into thinking they have self-rule.
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Setting aside contemporary examples, Athens.

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Second, there's nothing dangerous about denying democracy. It's called sanity. If someone says "the aliens are coming to kill us" yet there is ZERO evidence for their claim, I deny it. It's a healthy thing to do. The same goes for "democracy", "libertarianism", "communism", etc. -- all synthetic ideas and demagoguery designed to get people to cut their own throats.

You misunderstood my point. The abstraction of "Democracy" is just that, an abstraction: a mental model used to understand reality, solve problems and communicate to others. The danger is when we start applying this rigid model to reality and dismiss real occurances on the basis that these occurrences did not fit the theory therefore THEY are false. The world doesn't need another go at communism but there are no shortages of the insistence that communism ought to be given a shot because it was never tried.

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Third, there is most definitely blood on the sword of America. The Revolutionary War, the Civil War...

I know it's called the American Revolution, but it was a war for secession, big difference. The Civil War was of the same kind. Please note the difference between secession and Revolution.


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Fourth, Plato himself forthrightly speaks out against democracy. He states: "These will be some of the features of democracy... it will be, in all likelihood, an agreeable, lawless, parti-colored society, dealing with all alike on a footing of equality, whether they be really equal or not."

Notice how I never said any of these things? Plato described, in detail, the cycles of anacyclosis which i think originates in Plutarch. Regardless, I know Plato didnt think favorably of democracy and I never mentioned otherwise.

Re: Deleted post.
March 23, 2014, 11:22:42 PM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.

Re: Deleted post.
March 24, 2014, 01:03:33 AM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.

Giving up already?

Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

It's like a cooperative investigation into the nature of reality. I could very well be mistaken and misinformed on certain things. I'm here to learn.

Now then, I think we can classify the Civil War as a revolution in that it was a revolution against the Southern Slave Owner class and against the British and French who supported them. (Of course, the delusion is that the North's victory meant total freedom, when in reality they never freed themselves from the Northern Wages Slave Owner class.) Remember, secession, though usually unfavorable, is nothing more than a tactic or strategy or means of and end: revolution. The South's "revolution" was really nothing but a very late counter-revolution to 1776. Another way of seeing this in the "big picture" is that there are different factions of oligarchs who engage in internecine conflict; it's definitely not as simple as "the masses versus the elites" or "the poor versus the rich". I'm sure we agree there.

Regarding Athens being a democracy, this is exactly what I was getting at: it was a plutocracy in which the masses were fooled into believing it was a democracy. In other words, there is only ever the appearance of democracy in formalities, but even this never lasts long, and rarely produces substantive improvements in the lives of the many. Most importantly, we must remember this is the same society which murdered Socrates. (Unrelated but relevant, we must remember the Weimar Republic had democratic features and elections with popular votes, and even though Hitler lost the election in public, behind closed doors in private it was decided he would be appointed.)

Regarding Plato, I'm saying that democracy cannot be some force outside the cycle which makes it less- or non-violent, precisely because democracy is inside of and a part of that very cycle.

NHA

Re: Deleted post.
March 24, 2014, 07:01:48 AM
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Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

Fantasy.

Re: Deleted post.
March 24, 2014, 03:09:25 PM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.

Giving up already?

Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

It's like a cooperative investigation into the nature of reality. I could very well be mistaken and misinformed on certain things. I'm here to learn.

Now then, I think we can classify the Civil War as a revolution in that it was a revolution against the Southern Slave Owner class and against the British and French who supported them. (Of course, the delusion is that the North's victory meant total freedom, when in reality they never freed themselves from the Northern Wages Slave Owner class.) Remember, secession, though usually unfavorable, is nothing more than a tactic or strategy or means of and end: revolution. The South's "revolution" was really nothing but a very late counter-revolution to 1776. Another way of seeing this in the "big picture" is that there are different factions of oligarchs who engage in internecine conflict; it's definitely not as simple as "the masses versus the elites" or "the poor versus the rich". I'm sure we agree there.

Regarding Athens being a democracy, this is exactly what I was getting at: it was a plutocracy in which the masses were fooled into believing it was a democracy. In other words, there is only ever the appearance of democracy in formalities, but even this never lasts long, and rarely produces substantive improvements in the lives of the many. Most importantly, we must remember this is the same society which murdered Socrates. (Unrelated but relevant, we must remember the Weimar Republic had democratic features and elections with popular votes, and even though Hitler lost the election in public, behind closed doors in private it was decided he would be appointed.)

Regarding Plato, I'm saying that democracy cannot be some force outside the cycle which makes it less- or non-violent, precisely because democracy is inside of and a part of that very cycle.

I say I'll stop but then I walk into adult day care with a lot of down time and here I an. You've cut down on the polemics so I guess I'll respond.

Re: Secession

I'd first like to know what you understand Revolution and secession to be, before we can continue.

Re: Athens.

What you describe is just one of the ways democracy functions in the real world. In fact, small groups of powerful men making decisions is the way every form of government operates. On paper, I'd agree with you, but I prefer to avoid the drafting board.

Re:Cycles

I see, I wish you had just said that. I don't know that we'll see eye to eye on it, but I feel that the historical examples of Anacyclosis I listed in this thread are sufficient to prove that it occurs within our Democratic System. For clarifies sake, nonviolence is not the virtue of Democracy, the virtue is in the ability to remove inept, ineffectual leadership in a relatively stable way compared to autocratic forms of government where doing the same is extremely disruptive to the entire society.