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Tell me about your education.

Tell me about your education.
April 20, 2014, 06:11:33 AM
Some of you characters are still in the education system, or not so long out of it.
From what I am coming to understand, education nowadays is more about indoctrination than about education.

I am running into more and more young people, especially on forums, that seem completely unable to learn anything that they don't already know.
There is this whole thing now, focusing upon proof for every single word, being demanded, before consideration of the message even takes place.
What is this? What's going on?

People tell me politics is a big subject in schools. Biased leftwards, from what I can see.
It seems generally unpopular, but from the evidence, it warps kids anyway, into equality-obsessed machines that become enraged at anyone who mentions things they know nothing about. What they really do know about, is being so utterly self-centered that it boggles the mind.

Is there truth in this? Can anyone shed light?

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 20, 2014, 08:30:28 AM
The thing is, while school commits itself to some illusory Socratic method, it's actually GIVING YOU the conclusions you're meant to obtain, not the data that allows people to infer answers for themselves.

That's why, in my mind, classroom participation is best served with a dose of side reading on one's own. That gives you perspective (if you're in dire need of it).

The thing is, people already EXPECT a sort of answer to their expectations. They've confined the answer to their perception, and thus, the world is a bundle of answers waiting to be discovered- and these kids are remarkably mechanized.

EDIT: I am still an undergraduate in university.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 20, 2014, 09:58:37 AM
In most classes, indoctrination is present - not a centrally organized schema but usually following the personal beliefs of the instructors, which don't differ much. In a typical class, there are a few cheerleaders, a few malcontents, and everyone else just tries to stay awake. Very few students give a shit one way or the other, which is why the level of understanding is so shallow. Most passively accept what they're told because they don't care enough to disagree.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 20, 2014, 10:08:01 AM
In most classes, indoctrination is present - not a centrally organized schema but usually following the personal beliefs of the instructors, which don't differ much. In a typical class, there are a few cheerleaders, a few malcontents, and everyone else just tries to stay awake. Very few students give a shit one way or the other, which is why the level of understanding is so shallow. Most passively accept what they're told because they don't care enough to disagree.

This too- this is probably the biggest manifestation of how shitty and unoptimized education is.

NHA

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 20, 2014, 11:47:23 AM
Nobody gave a fuck about anything when i was in high school. The school was mostly concerned with discipline, and creating future workers that knew how to show up on time.

Grade school is where most of the core indoctrination took place. I remember being scolded in 2nd grade for saying that i was indifferent to what was going on in Somalia at the time.

It feels like things are slightly different now though. I'm 30, and people in their late teens and early 20s seem much more whiney about liberal political "issues" - particularly issues that claim to be feminist.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 02:45:16 PM
Some of you characters are still in the education system, or not so long out of it.
From what I am coming to understand, education nowadays is more about indoctrination than about education.

I am running into more and more young people, especially on forums, that seem completely unable to learn anything that they don't already know.
There is this whole thing now, focusing upon proof for every single word, being demanded, before consideration of the message even takes place.
What is this? What's going on?

People tell me politics is a big subject in schools. Biased leftwards, from what I can see.
It seems generally unpopular, but from the evidence, it warps kids anyway, into equality-obsessed machines that become enraged at anyone who mentions things they know nothing about. What they really do know about, is being so utterly self-centered that it boggles the mind.

Is there truth in this? Can anyone shed light?

I simply do not understand how you  can think a concept like indoctrination can go hand in hand with the concept of demanding proof. They're pretty much opposites, aren't they?

If kids you are talking to are demanding proof, then that means ideas are being put to the test, and selected for. If yours don't cut the mustard, that isn't necessary because your audience is 'indoctrinated'. Quite to contrary if these kids are, in fact, demanding proof.

And for what it's worth I don't like the tendency towards anti-intellectualism that is so often displayed by non-leftists, which you yourself seem to buy into Crow. I observe the forum heading this way. Rigorous argument, use of 'proof' and evidence, and a skill in rhetoric should not be the property of the hard left with the right having only vague mysticism and far-removed philosophy with a distrust for debate and intellectual battle.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 04:33:17 PM
You are mistaking my stance for something you term 'buying-into'.
I read a comment by somebody else that said pretty much the same thing.
If there is an anti-intellectualism movement, then I am not aware of it.
But if there is, I can see why.
As with most things, I invented my version, myself, by myself.
Because of the chaos I've seen between self-identified intellectuals.


Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 05:02:38 PM
I see absolutely nothing wrong with asking folks to provide the evidence that their conclusions are based upon.  I don't know everything, and, to top it off, I don't live inside your head.  Evidence is just the reality-context I need to evaluate—and often enough, simply to understand—the arguments others advance. 

That said, what I often see folks asking for is not evidence, but proof.  The latter is a lazy man's game, and, "Prove it!" generally means something more along the lines of, "I need you to do my thinking for me."  Too, the demand for "proof" is frequently deployed as a sort of rigged carney game, designed to protect the one demanding it from having to engage with troubling ideas and concepts in any sort of serious or honest way.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 05:32:37 PM
Good observation, and a fine distinction.
You are right.
There is nothing wrong with engaging intellect in order to get somewhere.
There is plenty wrong with hiding behind it to snipe at uncomfortable truths.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:00:10 PM
You are mistaking my stance for something you term 'buying-into'.
I read a comment by somebody else that said pretty much the same thing.
If there is an anti-intellectualism movement, then I am not aware of it.
But if there is, I can see why.
As with most things, I invented my version, myself, by myself.
Because of the chaos I've seen between self-identified intellectuals.

Have you considered the likelihood that the reason the intellectuals you've seen are questionable is because they're leftists? There are few real, open right-wing intellectuals still around.

These are quite sane:
http://www.deathmetal.org/forum/index.php/topic,15785.0.html

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:07:26 PM
I hesitate to label absolutely everybody a leftist, simply because they get too wrapped up in the importance of intellect. Although, really, I believe that being too intellectual results in leftism.
I aim for balance, where the right tool is the one used, depending on the task at hand.

The problem with intellect, is that it depends, for its validity, upon a starting baseline that conforms to Reality.
This being so rarely the case, the validity of intellect itself, is thrown into question.


Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:19:19 PM
Here is my education, in detail:

I'm a high school drop out. With a GED.

Then I got into trouble with heroin, joined the military. They beat me into a functioning member of society and now I fix cars.

Funny thing is I never had a problem with the police during my junkie years, now I'm clean, married and have a job and now they want to fuck with me haha.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:25:56 PM
I hesitate to label absolutely everybody a leftist, simply because they get too wrapped up in the importance of intellect. Although, really, I believe that being too intellectual results in leftism.
I aim for balance, where the right tool is the one used, depending on the task at hand.

The problem with intellect, is that it depends, for its validity, upon a starting baseline that conforms to Reality.
This being so rarely the case, the validity of intellect itself, is thrown into question.

It seems to me that the phenomenon that you describe is the common problem of becoming wedded to our abstractions.  Folks become so enamored of the models, theories and symbols they've developed to investigate and understand reality that mistake the symbol for the thing it stands in for, and, in doing so, immerse themselves in unreality in the name of investigating reality.  Is that what you're driving at here?

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:37:23 PM
It is. Read the essay 'Life Simulator' on Amerika.
All is explained.
http://www.amerika.org/science/life-simulator/

And please forgive the God-awful picture. Brett sometimes does inexplicable things.

Re: Tell me about your education.
April 21, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
Well, if the problem is the tendency to fall down the rabbit hole into our own abstractions, then it seems to me that the solution is probably evidence, or a reliance thereon.