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Summoning make stand against fascism

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 15, 2007, 09:36:21 AM
Stupid that Impaled Nazarene turned into what they are now - stupid punkrock based music in which nationalism seems only funny and as another rebellion.

Talking about NSDAP and all similar stuff - altough I consider myself nationalist and I am pretty far from being leftist this thinks dont appeal to me very much. Most of that appears to me as another working class movement altough bit differently painted - and its actions often didnt differ from communist ones - aggressive attacks against Finland, Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states... altough under the flag of international justice for all. Democracy, communism, or nazism are same mass madness, big controlled concerns, all of them standing for industrial growth. Nazi leaders were  a bit more aristocratic than leaders of these days who are only corrupted pussies, but hardly heroes of old days  In my country many nazis or skinheads are ok with being christians (what is a kind of good joke - when you see christianity as international Jewish sect).
I understand and respect other nations and their habits and heritage (some seem close to me, but some I completely despise - altough there mightbe someone not such useless in this despicable nation) still I dont see why shouldnt I prefer my language, landscape and people of my country altough not all or most of them.
Protector says he likes modern age - well but NSDAP, communism or democracy and all those shit that includes industrialism were all  invented  in last centuries so I am bit ashamed of listening to a  music of a man who loves age of plastic. Seems that all imagery of his band is, as almost every time today, just pretension or pointless fantasizing. Dream of elves, have a good time and then hooray! for eight hours in factory

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 15, 2007, 06:25:24 PM
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Protector says he likes modern age - well but NSDAP, communism or democracy and all those shit that includes industrialism were all invented in last centuries so I am bit ashamed of listening to a music of a man who loves age of plastic. Seems that all imagery of his band is, as almost every time today, just pretension or pointless fantasizing. Dream of elves, have a good time and then hooray! for eight hours in factory


The big problem of the NSDAP was that it was one of a kind, and it got it about half right. Positive: nationalism, anti-industrial-ownership (you're not correct on your assertion there, see Toland), pro-small business, pro-tradition. Negative: botched genocides, lost wars, administrative problems, corrupt people like Goering. This is common to any movement that's the first of its kind. The first airplanes could barely fly, first cars barely drive, first computer programs crashed constantly.

If anything, I'd say a Nazi problem was that they were NOT aristocratic but middle class, so lacked the patience and fineness of distinction in much of what they did. They needed another generation to perfect themselves, but the Russian threat wouldn't wait. Also WWI shaped the Nazis too much.

I guess I'm not pro-Nazi as much as anti-anti-Nazi. Anyone who thinks the big issue nowadays is beating back Nazis is a mental defective. Industrial society, modern society, the revenge of the masses... these are our problems. Not finding ways to ensure multiculturalism, always a destructive idea, gets spread further. I can see Protector's point, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that he's a whore for defending a modern time.



Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 16, 2007, 08:45:30 AM
Altough this might go bit out of theme- here are some opinions of mine what differences are between modern dictatorship and aristocratic feudal dictatorship (for those who like to call it this way) - in feudal times states were rather small and even they were often build from small autonomous parts therefore there was enough placde for people who an be considered ellite and also a more of competition - so this way bad leadership resulted in sooner collapse of reign. On contrary in modern times states tend to be larger (and much larger) and hardly centralized, in this case rather small ellite is created and this people are facing rather a large opposition of people enough suitable (or when we are talking about modern times lets say as much suitable as the first ones) to take lead - result is corruption of those people or annihilation. (Same goes for many people in modern era many are suitable for doing something but in large system much smaller number, thus unneeded and dissatisfying workplace are created to calm these people down). Since these ellite doesnt need to compete and is much harder to overthtrow, sooner or later it is much likely to degrade. After fall of unable ellite there are no people able to take lead in closer areas (since there is no count or duke of same nationality leaving in nearby castle)   because all people were only taught to follow. This is my main point not only against large dictator led states but against all large states. Capitalism seems to corrupt people most successively of all regimes.
One historical example - hopefully you wont see it as redundant - at the end of third century competent emperor, Diocletian, took lead in Roman Empire. He gave strict orders and many people were bound to their jobs or positions in political structures. This worked for a while, until the imperial bloodline produced good leaders- after that ended there was none to take leadership - people were used how to follow, how to worship emperor but not how to act. I think this might be possible end if now europe is taken by dictatorship - people are enough degenerate now to follow, to coward to stand against incompetent leader, dictatorship will work for a while but whast end will come then?  

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 16, 2007, 03:23:38 PM
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I also don't know how anyone can be against eugenics. Stupid people cause problems, crime and perversion (most child molestors in USA have reduced IQ). Retarded people depress everyone, cost a lot of time and money, and ruin families. Better to put them all in the gas chambers.


Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

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Eugenic sterilization of affected individuals would be ineffective in eliminating the targeted recessive allele from a population (Paul, 1998). In Hardy-Weinberg terms, within a large, closed, randomly-mating population, if p is the frequency of dominant allele A and q is the frequency of recessive allele a, then one expects p2 AA (homozygous normal) individuals, 2pq Aa (heterozygous normal carrier) individuals, and q2 aa (homozygous affected) individuals. For instance, if the frequency of A is 0.70 and of a is 0.30 in a population of adults, among their children the expected frequency of AA is 0.49, of Aa is 0.42, and of aa is 0.09. With eugenic sterilization of affected individuals, the heterozygotes (Aa) are a relatively large percent of the population compared to the homozygous recessives (aa) when q is low. Since heterozygotes would not be sterilized or isolated because they are asymptomatic, even though they still carry the disfavored allele, over time the effectiveness of eugenic sterilization diminishes.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 16, 2007, 04:16:50 PM
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Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2


Moderns will tell you life consists of problems to be solved, which then go away.  Perennial wisdom, however, says that life is a process--an ongoing series of cycles which, stepwise, build upon one another. Eugenics, or natural selection--the two are virtually synonymous--understood as but a small part of a greater design, is one such step.

Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, you must know, as a student of science, is a hypothetical model which is almost never seen in a natural environment. Even among humans, as domesticated as we are, mating is never random; such thus makes genetic drift possible.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 17, 2007, 12:15:59 AM
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Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2


I dont know if I understood it perfectly but it seems you are defending lives of criminals, degenerates and breathwasters. If the anihilation of notorius criminals, addicts and at least people who have under 90 IQ will bring us improvement only for next 20 years it is worth it.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 17, 2007, 07:17:40 PM
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I dont know if I understood it perfectly but it seems you are defending lives of criminals, degenerates and breathwasters. If the anihilation of notorius criminals, addicts and at least people who have under 90 IQ will bring us improvement only for next 20 years it is worth it.


Eugenics has never been about killing people to directly improve a population. Further, you are confusing phenotype with genotype. An offspring is not the sum of the visible traits (including IQ, predisposition to criminal activities and drugs) of the parents. Not to mention the influence of environmental factors.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 17, 2007, 09:42:45 PM
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Eugenics wouldn't work.


I don't know much about human genetics, but I'm no slouch when it comes to plant genetics. In fact, in certain areas, I'm something of an expert. I think I don't even know what "eugenics" is, at least for the purposes of this thread.

I can breed traits upward with only a handful of generations, and can reduce the frequency of other traits to a rarity with probably twice that number of generations.

That might not be eugenics, but natural selection and controlled breeding work in plants and, from what I can see, in animals and humans. Any evidence to the contrary is welcome, but I believe what I've done with my own two hands more than abstraction from academia -- and my academic background is not slouchy.

I think a lot of people come on here with a little knowledge, and hope it makes them experts. Let me tell you something: you're doing yourself a disservice. Keep an open mind instead. Whatever you're afraid of is probably not as bad as you think it is.

In the meantime, I'd like to remind all of you to be polite to our guests on this forum, and state that I am currently enjoying the music of Summoning. I've switched from Oath Bound back to Dol Guldur. It has a wider range of melodies.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 18, 2007, 01:39:34 AM
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Hitler threw away the lives of thousands on the battlefield.  He ignored his generals requests for a surrender and/or withdrawal during battles that they could no longer win.  Generals in Stalingrad were told to fight to the last man even though all hope was lost.  Hitler would not allow a surrender!  Also, Hitler took the easy way out and shot himself without allowing for a German surrender toward the end of the war.  He knew the Russians would soon advance into Germany and wreak malicious havoc on German citizens and there was no way out (hence his suicide) yet he would not surrender. He had no regard for the German people.  The land of Germany took precedent over all,  not the individual.    He only cared about his idea of what the Reich should be.  He blamed the German people for Germany's losses in WWII and cared not of the brutal onslaught that was to come from both fronts.  


Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.  

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 18, 2007, 07:12:21 AM
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Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.


The modern way to argue with anyone's ideas is to insult them as a person. They say the same things about George W. Bush, and they said the same things about William J. Clinton. It's mental crap.

You're right about National Socialism, however. It was a fusion that Hitler helped develop, but it was well underway before him, and without others might have never come to fruition. It was a resurrection of the ancient German way of society in a modern form, and Hitler gave it image and tied it together, but didn't invent any of this.

Then again, nothing is invented, really. It all happened with the Greeks and we're just walking through variations on those themes.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 18, 2007, 02:18:42 PM
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Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.  


True; I was only commenting on one Nazi in particular and maybe he was not the best representative of Nazism, but then who was?   The  answer to that question will always be subjective and open for debate.  I think it is safe to say that many high ranking Nazis were unbalanced.  I also think many were merely opportunists with a high national and racist fervor.  Something to think about:  How true to the Nazi cause could Hitler and his cronies have been to allow foreigners (including thousands of Slavs) into the SS?  Quite a compromise for such a passionate ideology.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 18, 2007, 08:36:21 PM
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but then who was


Reinhard Heydrich, the definition of Nazi. Hitler even considered him as a possible successor. I actually think that the hierarchy of Nazis were sane people. When the war was near an end Hitler was being rudely awoken from his dream world, and his unbalanced mind made everything worse. At this point all of the Nazi's thought him mad. Even Goebbels his most loyal followers faith was shaken. All find his actions to be madness and all wish the war to end, which are sane ideas, hence sane men making them.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
August 25, 2007, 10:47:11 AM
Just for context:

"Escape capitalism or democracy, believe in the need for strong leadership, and recognize that our societies go nowhere unless united by a single cultural value: that is National Socialism" - a poster on Stormfront

The NSDAP: What They Believed

What is National Socialism?


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 02, 2007, 02:54:20 AM
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Had Hitler won, we would not have grown up in nuclear terror of an insane Russian state.


Do you realise how insanely difficult it would have been to win WW2 for Hitler? The very logistics and distances involved in getting an army on American soil make the venture almost impossible. They couldn't even cross 30 miles of water to invade England (a far weaker and outclassed adversary). And against England they could actually use airbases from Europe, something impossible to achieve when invading America.

My point is, had the Nazis won convincingly in Europe and taken over Britain, the war could/would have dragged out for decades and would have involved an escalating nuclear war between Hitlers European empire (an insane state) and the USA. Meanwhile the Japanese are able to do nothing but prove to be an annoyance on the other side of the pacific. The end of the war is ambiguous but it's still very much possible it could just be another Cold War but with Nazis not Soviets, but with everyone having a far more healthy dose of radiation in their blood and every large town already ravaged by a bomb drop.

I don't understand how you continue to seek to appauld the NSDAP wherever you can. I think you have a condition for it. By the last couple years of the war the only thing sane institution in Germany was the army, controlled by the political idiots in Berlin.

If you really want to support the underdog, try supporting the Germans in WW1 instead.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 02, 2007, 03:40:31 AM
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Do you realise how insanely difficult it would have been to win WW2 for Hitler?


I think you misunderstand, because you haven't paid attention to history. Hitler's goals did not include the USA. The USA did not enter the war until Japan attacked, and only then declared war on Germany.

In short, you're trying to be unique like a hipster and failing.