Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Summoning make stand against fascism

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 27, 2007, 04:38:09 PM
I like Summoning a lot and think the latest album was a success towards an instrumentation that really transcended most of the previous albums, and I am glad that the band doesn't place political slogans before art, because when that happens, the music becomes propaganda.

Most of the "arguments" in the statement can easily be debunked, since they're versions of classic modern straw man logic.

- Nationalism doesn't involve hating anyone, since that is racism and moronic. Nationalism is about loving your own people and culture

- No individual is a lonely island. We're products of our forefathers, whether we like it or not, and the things they thought and did have shaped us into who we are

- Leadership doesn't imply that people are forced to think in a certain way, but to unite under common values and let a leader make sure those values are acted upon

- The fact that cultures influence each other, doesn't mean that Cultures Don't Exist; otherwise it'd be kind of hard to speak of diversity, right?!

- Blues would never have existed if Celtic folk music hadn't been created; blues is a cosmocultural genre, which means addressing it to blacks only is a fallacy

- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?

- Varg Vikernes is far from the Fuhrer of black metal music (and from what he's written, he supports ancient Democracy and not Nazism). What made Nazism interesting for a large portion of black metal acts, was the idealism and heroism over morality, and the flirt with ancient European philosophy and mythology. In metal you fight for ideals and power. In rock music you sing about sex and hamburgers. Notice a difference?

With that said, I will continue listening to Summoning without being bothered by this. According to reality, some are artists and some are politicians. We should not confuse the both, even if artists sometimes contribute with sane political views, and certain politicans may hold artistic qualities (*hint* HITLER *hint*).

Iconoclast

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 27, 2007, 06:03:16 PM
Quote
why does not anybody try to be political incorrect by spreading Islamic terror ideas.


http://anus.com/metal/fearless_iranians_from_hell/

Iconoclast

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 27, 2007, 06:07:26 PM
Quote
- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?


Like Graveland and Nokturnal Mortum?  Get real. (I know NM is Ukranian, but the point still stands).

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 27, 2007, 08:53:04 PM
At the end of the day, Who cares? Most of our favourite bands are probably composed of retards we would not talk to in real life! Since when does one misplaced comment sentence an artist to being hated by some supposedly elistest aids junky on some forum. The music is what counts. Personally I will still enjoy Summoning regardless of their comments, and if certain elistist faggots cannot deal with that, bad luck or better still start your own band and see how you go! a million bucks say's you will suck and never be as good!

Annihilaytorr

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 27, 2007, 11:49:20 PM
Welcome Protector -

I have a two part question.

1. Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? Is it motivated by anything deeper than just thinking Lord of the Rings is cool? What is the purpose of Summoning?

2. What "black" elements are found in your music?

I am surprised to see you toe the line of feel good propaganda about how "African" rock music supposedly is. Most people who think outside what TV and mainstream education feed them know that the "African" role in blues and rock music is dramatically over-stated to make rock and modern music, and by extension society, more inclusive to demographics that were abused and marginalized historically.

What made metal "metal" was the conscious and direct move towards European/neo-classical tradition. If society was just as fucked up, and everything was exactly the same as it is now, but blacks were never taken as slaves and never played blues, metal would still exist in very much the same state.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 10:26:11 AM
Quote
I like Summoning a lot and think the latest album was a success towards an instrumentation that really transcended most of the previous albums, and I am glad that the band doesn't place political slogans before art, because when that happens, the music becomes propaganda.

Most of the "arguments" in the statement can easily be debunked, since they're versions of classic modern straw man logic.

- Nationalism doesn't involve hating anyone, since that is racism and moronic. Nationalism is about loving your own people and culture

- No individual is a lonely island. We're products of our forefathers, whether we like it or not, and the things they thought and did have shaped us into who we are

- Leadership doesn't imply that people are forced to think in a certain way, but to unite under common values and let a leader make sure those values are acted upon

- The fact that cultures influence each other, doesn't mean that Cultures Don't Exist; otherwise it'd be kind of hard to speak of diversity, right?!

- Blues would never have existed if Celtic folk music hadn't been created; blues is a cosmocultural genre, which means addressing it to blacks only is a fallacy

- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?

- Varg Vikernes is far from the Fuhrer of black metal music (and from what he's written, he supports ancient Democracy and not Nazism). What made Nazism interesting for a large portion of black metal acts, was the idealism and heroism over morality, and the flirt with ancient European philosophy and mythology. In metal you fight for ideals and power. In rock music you sing about sex and hamburgers. Notice a difference?

With that said, I will continue listening to Summoning without being bothered by this. According to reality, some are artists and some are politicians. We should not confuse the both, even if artists sometimes contribute with sane political views, and certain politicans may hold artistic qualities (*hint* HITLER *hint*).


cool this forum finally gets a much higher niveau. i appreciate that indeed!

yes i agree with you in some aspects. actually i did not want to attack nationalism. i dont see myself as nationalist, but i know that this word does not necessarily have to mean national socialistic for sure.

Nationalism does not necessarily mean national socialism and does not have to be right btw. Once again the difference between nationalism and NS is that non rather left nationalism fights the people on high position whereas the right nationalism is always combined with arrogance and fights against people in the lowest position. i think right nationalism is rather meant for week people, and explains why you always see 30 skinheads beating up a few.

i also agree with your second comment totally. i total know that i am a product of my environment, and noone is really free. but what i mean is that you are not a slave of your DNS. I mean i know mexicans making cool industrial music, turks and arabs making black metal etc. your fate is not determined because of your "race".

i did not say that all leaders force there people to think in a certain way. i meant that fascistic leaders do that and actually this is the definition of fascism, i think noone can deny that.

again you are right with your next statement, but i think in the end of my political statements i said the same as you do, didn't it?

ok you are again right.
i think the reason for this confusion is my lack of english. what i meant is that metal simply has historic black influences and would not existing in the way it is now without those influences. i never said that it is sill black music, again i wanted to express that almost any kind of music has multi-cultural background even if those influences are quite hidden.

about your next statement. well some might be but i know from interviews that polish nazi say that hitler was write in everything except the fact that slavonig people are no master race as well. and i also rather wanted to focus on the fact that some german nazi bands see the polish in a total contray way as they think they do.

yes i again i agree with you somehow. but the problem is this mixing of reality with fantasy. actualyl when we sing about battles and elves and orks, it does not mean that for me elves and orks are reality;-)

and also agree with you. mixing politics with music is like mixing religion with politics;-) i tried to avoid that all those years, but suddenly since i dealed with screw driver and landser and also some german nazi song writers i simply could not continue that way. it makes me angry and i wanted to express my anger. is that so hard to understand? ints expressing your anger something that goes quite well with metal attitude?

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 10:35:56 AM
Quote
It's nice to see one of the best current artists in metal posting here :-)

Protector:

Metal isn't completely 'ayran' for sure, but none of us are trying to say that it is. Influence for modern art comes from almost everywhere, due to globalisation. Peoples and cultures have borrowed influences from each other since time immemorial (and not just musically), it is childish to say 'who owns what kind of music'. The only thing I can see what black people have done is slightly changed the way of playing an instrument. They didn't change the direction of art such as in the way many classical composers have. Don't use the overplayed black influence on music as an outlet to show how kosher you are with the moron masses.

All that matters in a musician is the spirit and will to create art. It doesn't really matter what instruments or techniques get in the way. That's why many people here think highly of your music.

By the way, it seems you are trying to excuse Turkish economic immigrants moving en masse to your country and causing ethnocide by saying some food you eat finds its roots in China hundreds of years ago. Why?




yes you are right. surely this statement i wrote was not in contradiction to all people on this forum. but some people are total in contradiction to that. for example varg said that he stopped playing guitars because guitars are n-i-g-g-e-r instruments. at least for him my statement was a contradiction, and he surely is not the only one.

no my informations about turkey where not in connection to any turkish immigrants. i just dealed a lot with turkey as i was working with a turkish singer for my project "die verbannten kinder evas". that really influenced me for sure. i did not expect any people in turkey that grew up with burzum since the age of 13, that have hardly any knowledge about turkish culture and only love western one. that showed for me even clearer as before that your "race" does not tell anything about your personality, and your culture. you can chose it if you are in the right surrounding.


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 10:41:33 AM
Quote
Protector, welcome aboard.  

I think most of us here are always glad to see musicians who are willing to come down from the clouds and discuss their music and beliefs, regardless of whether they fall in line with what many of us believe.  

We could spend all year arguing about the provenance of the various instruments or the exact ethnic lineage of the blues and get no closer to the truth.  Scholars have kicked these questions back and forth for decades, but no one really has an answer that is satisfactory: too much has simply been lost in the mists of time.

In any event, the reality is that, whatever the origins of the guitar and other instruments may be, they have been central to European musical culture for centuries, so the use of guitar hardly calls into question the 'Europeaness' (for lack of a better word) of metal.  The blues seem even less relevant, because, in my view, metal emerged as a form distinct from rock precisely because metal moved away from the blues tradition - away from blues-based tonality; away from blues-based structures; away from the party hearty hedonism rock had inherited from the blues (which isn't to say that metalheads don't party, just that hedonism is subordinated to and sublimated within a Will-to-Power warrior ethos that is clearly modelled on a form of European martial idealism).  Instead, metal increasingly adopted the ideals and techniques of the European classical tradition, making epic, structuralist music celebrating a martial idealism that is peculiarly European.

Now, I've certainly never been privy to the inner workings of your creative process, but I have to admit that when I listen to Summoning what I hear (and I have a fairly vast lexicon of musical history to draw on) is a thousand years of Germanic musical culture condensed (if that word can be fairly applied to a band famed for albums consisting of 10+ minute epics) into a new musical mythology celebrating a world that has passed and looking to a world that could be again.  You might just as well try to hold back the wind as try to demand that 'nazis' not like your music.  And, let's be honest, nobody but an idiot is going to assume that Summoning is a National Socialist outfit because they saw a video on YouTube.  Do you really care all that much what morons think?

Just as a curiosity, who would you say your primary influences are?  I hear Burzum, mid-period Bathory, Wagner, medieval/Renaissance polyphony and, on occasion, darkwave or maybe even Dead Can Dance, but it's always possible that what I'm hearing is parallel evolution.  


cool that you apreaciate my connection to the people who listen to music. this was always important for me. no matter if they wrote some comments or asked me to sign a booklet.

you have to know i hate arrogance and as i feel so much arrogance in rassistic ideologies i hat it as well.

i think i explained the rest of your post as well. but i will get more detailed

once again metal is not a music that sounds like african music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but it changed the face of metal music. i see it rather like food. if you eat a carrot for example i don't think you will look like a carrot after a while, but anyway this carrot will help you to build up your body.
i hope this analogy was not to weired:-)

the essence of that is that influences on cultures from far away dont mean that this culture looses its identity.



Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 10:51:01 AM
Quote
And btw talking about shocking and political correctness. why does not anybody try to be political incorrect by spreading Islamic terror ideas.


http://www.amerika.org/

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 11:37:07 AM
Quote
Once again the difference between nationalism and NS is that non rather left nationalism fights the people on high position whereas the right nationalism is always combined with arrogance and fights against people in the lowest position.


You're wrong, historically speaking. Hitler defended the working German from large corporate interests. The problem with the left is that they're so busy trying to get revenge on rich people they forget that it's the appetite of the crowd that empowers the real bastards in this world.

I don't know how any thinking person can defend the left, considering their utterly abysmal record in getting things done. Have they lessened poverty? No. Have they improved "race relations"? No. Have they made women happier? No, now they're all single in their 40s, without families and ignored by men who can chase younger flesh. Left is death.

That being said, I can't think of a real right-wing party at this point in time, and I think it's a mistake to view Hitler's National Socialists as leftists. After all, they were the first government to advance a real environmental plan, and still the only one with a comprehensive one.

Protector, I respect your music, but you're not a historian or philosopher. Let me direct you to something and see how many points you disagree with:

Quote
The Programme of the German Workers' Party is designed to be of limited duration. The leaders have no intention, once the aims announced in it have been achieved, of establishing fresh ones, merely in order to increase, artificially, the discontent of the masses and so ensure the continued existence of the Party.

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:
(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action. - NSDAP


You can see that maybe the modern rightists you see are not representative of the ideas responsible for National Socialism. (Hell, most people are morons. So most rightists are probably morons, too -- but that doesn't mean rightist as correctly interpreted is wrong).

Two, on race... you wonder why America is a cultureless void? A lack of National culture and consensus. Every individual person (the weak) does what they want, and doesn't care about the outcome, so the place becomes a wreck. Cruel corporate leaders manipulate the little dummies and get what they want, every time. That's what the left brings you... dominion by jerks.

The fact is, the crowd needs to be kept in line, because they don't have the judgment to make political decisions, just like you clearly don't understand history (even from an unbiased perspective). You have other things to do. Escapist fantasy heavy metal is one of them. So we should pay attention to the smartest people we have, and their wisdom is anti-crowd.

Personally I am very much in love with Nietzsche and Aristotle. They are the ultimate eugenicist realists who recognize that constant struggle by the better against the lesser is necessary for the better to keep making themselves better, and so staying better, and for the lesser to keep from overwhelming the planet with their numbers.

I consider myself a Anti-Racist Nationalist in that I don't believe in being mean to other races, but I believe in keeping my own apart from all other races by any means necessary. That comes from an understanding of history and the ideas that rule it, and I suggest you explore those intellectual tools before making grand but empty statements.

85 (Heil Eugenics)


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 01:08:45 PM
The Nazi's still managed to fuck it up; they became decadent, and allowed Hitler to be something more than a mouthpiece.

I don't like to see any NSDAP praise here seeing as in practice they were a terrible, terrible corrupt and moronic party, and managed to fuck up nationalism for the rest of us.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 04:57:58 PM
Quote

cool that you apreaciate my connection to the people who listen to music. this was always important for me. no matter if they wrote some comments or asked me to sign a booklet.

you have to know i hate arrogance and as i feel so much arrogance in rassistic ideologies i hat it as well.


But don't you think there's a certain arrogance inherent in suggesting that your music should be reserved for people who share your views?  Understand I'm not trying to single you out - I feel the same way when Varg pontificates about who Burzum is 'for.'

Quote
once again metal is not a music that sounds like african music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think this is the point everyone has been trying to make to you.  Metal just isn't the multicultural phenomenon (at least in its roots) that it seemed you initially implied.  There's a certain incredulity that gets triggered in people when they hear how 'multicultural' metal is from one of the guys in Summoning.  I wouldn't offend your for all the world, my friend, but Summoning couldn't sound  much whiter if you released an album of Hoerst Wessel Lied remixes...

Quote
the essence of that is that influences on cultures from far away dont mean that this culture looses its identity.


I think we're saying much the same thing.

In any event, this thread is becoming too much about 'National Socialism' and not enough about Summoning, metal, or any other relevant subject, so if you would like to continue to discuss this, I'd be happy to take it to private messages or to email (I can be reached at [email protected] ).

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 07:41:05 PM
Protector:

I don't see things in terms of "good" and "bad" and instead look at things from their healthy and unhealthy aspects. So when i look at Nazism i can see the positive effects it had and the negative. This means i don't use an idea because the Nazis did or use an idea because the Nazis did.

Some positive things the Nazis achieved was they united Germany and took countries that where pretty much German controlled (in terms of population) that bordered Germany that wanted to become part of the fatherland and gave them all a common country. It heavily promoted pagan ideals, particularly those of the Germanic tribes (for obvious reasons) and as such used eugenics and routine exercise programs to have a very fit and healthy people.

But then you look at the negative or unhealthy aspects used by the Nazis. Forced eugenics, complete and utter control over population (making free though illegal and punishable by death). Persecution of huge numbers of people on unproved  grounds (and unprovable at the time). Sadistic harm of others for the sake of torture.

If we look at Nazism this way we can be unafraid to use things that the Nazis did that where helpful and beneficial and are aware of what should not be done.      

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 08:42:04 PM
Quote
... If we look at Nazism this way we can be unafraid to use things that the Nazis did that where helpful and beneficial and are aware of what should not be done.

We can even omit the "what should be done" part and stay entirely in the realm which is above all moral obligations and, more specifically, individual concerns. Music can potentially partake in this realm to some extent. This in turn allows for a realization of the supra-individual element in the listenener, depending on his capacities. The creator(s) of the music are in this respect not relevant.
When people get so easily offended over concepts which really reside on an entirely different sphere than the one of individual beings, it is nothing more than a sign of lacking insight on their part.

Annihilaytorr

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 28, 2007, 09:13:08 PM
I think it boils down to Protector living in a box, still blind to what is happening to the rest of the West. He is still very brainwashed, which is surprising to me as someone with music as advanced as his one would think would have a greater understanding of the world. Ah well. Awesome music though.