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Summoning make stand against fascism

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 29, 2007, 01:30:54 AM
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I think it boils down to Protector living in a box, still blind to what is happening to the rest of the West. He is still very brainwashed, which is surprising to me as someone with music as advanced as his one would think would have a greater understanding of the world. Ah well. Awesome music though.


This situation is fairly common, in my experience, with the musician's musician types - perhaps he is of that ilk and that is precisely why he propounds this inane nonsense. They get caught-up in the typical reverence for all the "greats" and supposedly ultra-influential, ie. "Protector" parroting that negro music canard,  or those who endlessly praise Jazz as the be all and end all of artistic expression in music...not so much because it is really all that impressive, but because it fits the ideal of the "right-thinking" artistic-types.  Its a sickness...


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 29, 2007, 12:49:40 PM
Gentlemen, you don't open a dialogue by insulting the participants. I think it's great Protector showed up and gave his side of the story. I don't have a problem with them being anti-Nazi, but I do think the parroting of incorrect historical data is a shame to say the least. It makes black metal bands look like more of the sheep problem, not the solution.

Nationalism is rising across the world. The challenge to it is to avoid going overboard like the NSDAP, who had some great ideas and some great failings, although their failings aren't as great as society's now. This is just a wimpy time we live in, when people are so afraid someone's feelings might get hurt they pass along a rotting society to everyone.

These sorts of societies never last... they disintegrate as soon as it becomes clear that to avoid being one of the impoverished proles, one must buy fully into a boring and ugly capitalistic system. It's too bad the West has elected to destroy itself in this passive way, but when you decide to enrich yourselves personally by using the crowd against your enemies, expect to start a chain reaction that ends in disintegration.


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 29, 2007, 01:52:49 PM
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although their failings aren't as great as society's now.


Erm, exactly how much do you know about Nazism?

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 01:46:39 AM
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Erm, exactly how much do you know about Nazism?


Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 03:04:54 AM
Many of you have managed to create debate that's no better than the "debate" you see in American political party candidate commercials. Discussion should be about the material at hand. All these comments purportedly trying to explain Protector's psychology are ad hom and a waste of time. Given he is really Protector of Summoning, I'm surprised at the bitterness and lack of respect that is showing itself in places, given the great respect here for the music of Summoning. Some of you seem to wear masks of decency that don't quite hide your sneers. Are you so swept up in ideology that you are forced into attacking someone you claim you respect so much?

I thought there was an interesting question raised earlier that I'd like to recreate here, and it is related to the topic at hand, for it would distinguish Summoning music from any of this political business. I think that distinction is what is motivating the strange feelings: how could Summoning make something like this that feels like a press release? Summoning is apolitical afterall.

So, we wonder what you think:
Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? What is the purpose of Summoning?

Spirit, purpose, and also perhaps: what do you think Summoning means? What is its significance? Many people here build up strong feelings about what makes Summoning significant or important in some way, so perhaps you could say how you feel about this.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 07:34:19 AM
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Many of you have managed to create debate that's no better than the "debate" you see in American political party candidate commercials. Discussion should be about the material at hand. All these comments purportedly trying to explain Protector's psychology are ad hom and a waste of time. Given he is really Protector of Summoning, I'm surprised at the bitterness and lack of respect that is showing itself in places, given the great respect here for the music of Summoning. Some of you seem to wear masks of decency that don't quite hide your sneers. Are you so swept up in ideology that you are forced into attacking someone you claim you respect so much?

I thought there was an interesting question raised earlier that I'd like to recreate here, and it is related to the topic at hand, for it would distinguish Summoning music from any of this political business. I think that distinction is what is motivating the strange feelings: how could Summoning make something like this that feels like a press release? Summoning is apolitical afterall.

So, we wonder what you think:
 Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? What is the purpose of Summoning?

Spirit, purpose, and also perhaps: what do you think Summoning means? What is its significance? Many people here build up strong feelings about what makes Summoning significant or important in some way, so perhaps you could say how you feel about this.


why you talk about an attack. why so sensitive suddenly. i just stood up and decided to write down all the things that piss me off about nazi movements. and hopefully there are not only nazis listening to my music. actually those statements cause a quite huge discussion in this forum and as long as an argument has at least a bit niveau i am glad to react on it. thats not attacking fans, or showing disrespect to them. in contrary, isnt reacting to fans opinions the deepest kind of respect you can imagine for a band member. would it not be far more respect-less to just thing "those nazis are pure   idiots" and never try to discuss about it and find out some of the reasons for that?

about your question which i did not answer:
the purpose of summoning is to create  a musical fantasy world for sure. we want to make music totally based on tunes and atmospheres that take people away from reality while listening to it. and all of you who say that summoning shall be unpolitic are totally right, thats why we never would spread any political statements in our music. but on the other hand i get seriously angry when i see ideologies arising that sooner or later would destroy any kind of musical minority cultures such as the metal scene. and i think keeping this anger inside of me instead of showing it to the people that might be interested in it, would be rather week. actually i would have preferred to leave those nazi videos in you tub there and put a comment to them only there not on the page, but my only option was to remove them.

anyway take a look at lord of the rings. take a look at the orc and the haradrims with their oliphaunts that summoning fans rather indentify with than with the good guys. inst it obvious how close the are to more oriental inspired culture. sure tolkien never wanted to express political views in his book, but subconciously you can see very many similarties.

and take a look at our CD "Minas Morgul", then you noticed that we always use also oriental scales. some also done by silenius. and in former times even varg listened to bands like "dead can dance".

at the beginning black metal was satanic but not national socialistic. those times most people said they try to shock the super conservative people in their towns with such music, but what happened then, they start to adore national socialism that is defined as super conservative.






Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 07:44:18 AM
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Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



No but nazi braught us the second word war, that caused the destruction of almost each house in vienna for example! and that far more heavy than a lousy crashed building by terrorists. i think maybe the fact that i was born in the same land where hitler was born makes those ideologies much more real for me, whereas people from contries far away can surely put more illusions inside this ideology.

and btw.
nazis did not reign long enough to bring us global warmiing but they acted like that. they focused totally on industrialisation what sooner or later leads to that. they never did anything like environment- protection for sure.

and yes, they brought us soulless jobs indeed. i think hardly before people where working so much on band conveyors as before.

well they did not bring us boring tv shows as the tev technolgy was not ready that time, but they spend much time with boring propaganda shows

and if you think nazis did not bring us a "perverse society". how you call a society that takes total innocent j-e-w-is-h people who never did anything wrong and put them to concentration camps.

and btw imagine an old nazi seeing todays metal scene. they would think "guys with gay long hair, what scandal". they first would take all of the metal kids and shave their heads to prevent this "perversion".

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 08:05:39 AM
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You're wrong, historically speaking. Hitler defended the working German from large corporate interests. The problem with the left is that they're so busy trying to get revenge on rich people they forget that it's the appetite of the crowd that empowers the real bastards in this world.

I don't know how any thinking person can defend the left, considering their utterly abysmal record in getting things done. Have they lessened poverty? No. Have they improved "race relations"? No. Have they made women happier? No, now they're all single in their 40s, without families and ignored by men who can chase younger flesh. Left is death.

That being said, I can't think of a real right-wing party at this point in time, and I think it's a mistake to view Hitler's National Socialists as leftists. After all, they were the first government to advance a real environmental plan, and still the only one with a comprehensive one.

Protector, I respect your music, but you're not a historian or philosopher. Let me direct you to something and see how many points you disagree with:


You can see that maybe the modern rightists you see are not representative of the ideas responsible for National Socialism. (Hell, most people are morons. So most rightists are probably morons, too -- but that doesn't mean rightist as correctly interpreted is wrong).

Two, on race... you wonder why America is a cultureless void? A lack of National culture and consensus. Every individual person (the weak) does what they want, and doesn't care about the outcome, so the place becomes a wreck. Cruel corporate leaders manipulate the little dummies and get what they want, every time. That's what the left brings you... dominion by jerks.

The fact is, the crowd needs to be kept in line, because they don't have the judgment to make political decisions, just like you clearly don't understand history (even from an unbiased perspective). You have other things to do. Escapist fantasy heavy metal is one of them. So we should pay attention to the smartest people we have, and their wisdom is anti-crowd.

Personally I am very much in love with Nietzsche and Aristotle. They are the ultimate eugenicist realists who recognize that constant struggle by the better against the lesser is necessary for the better to keep making themselves better, and so staying better, and for the lesser to keep from overwhelming the planet with their numbers.

I consider myself a Anti-Racist Nationalist in that I don't believe in being mean to other races, but I believe in keeping my own apart from all other races by any means necessary. That comes from an understanding of history and the ideas that rule it, and I suggest you explore those intellectual tools before making grand but empty statements.

85 (Heil Eugenics)




remamber times of the industrial revolution where the normal working peole had to work 16 hours a day in cole mines an never even saw the cole mine. the only ones that cared about this situation where the socialist those times. with the help of workers unions they finally could manage that peole work less and less and the might of the super ritch got reduced.

well the problem is that this was 100 years ago, and now people calling them social politicians are rather social politicians because their daddies braught them to this position, but anyway you have to see that historically see they cared far more for their folk than any nazi leader.

actually it is a great advantage for a nazi that the thrid reich did not lats so long and did not end like ht communistic fascistic regimes, so there is more space left for fantasies how great everything would have been those times. but already in this short time you saw how the nazis leader had parties drinking champagne each day whereas the people in war had maybe 2 slices of bread to eat. i often noticed that most of the people can not decide between reality and the images the nazis produced in their propaganda. sure seeing it from the propaganda side everything was super fine, but that always the same with dictatorships. they have great abilities to presentsemselfes nice and fine.

you tell me i am neither a philosopher nor a historian so i shall shut up. why you think you have the right to decide that. and do you think that all people with opposite views are all philosophers and historian. acutally i am write i neither studies philosophy nor hitory in university. but do you think a person has to have finished a study in philosophy or history to be worth to have an opinion about it. isnit is possible for a normal person to read fact and compare them with others and therefore get new conclusions.
dont you think that these line is extremely arrogant?

sorry but i am right now to busy to react on all of the political lines you wrote but i want to concentrate one line

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.  

well thats what i mean. nazis are not only nationalits (a i said this is not necessarily bad for me). they are arrogant nationalists thinking their culture is better than others. well funny to read this in a forum that is on an USA server as USA once was a colony full of foreign people that later got independent. USA did not accept to be a colony to feed the people in England. and this complete idea of colonies is super capitalistic and the essence of exploitation and the reason for terror attacks as well.

ok anti-racistic nationalist are indeed not such a problem for me then racisitic one, but still living in austria that historically seen is totally mixed up since decades and centuries (40% of the austrian have obvious Slavonic names for example) i dont share those believes anyway.

Btw years ago i voted against the EU as i see it only as a support for the rich people.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 08:06:43 AM
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The Nazi's still managed to fuck it up; they became decadent, and allowed Hitler to be something more than a mouthpiece.

I don't like to see any NSDAP praise here seeing as in practice they were a terrible, terrible corrupt and moronic party, and managed to fuck up nationalism for the rest of us.


great said.
i think if you really love germany then you should hate the nazis. i know many people who love their german culture and therefore specially hate the nazis.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 08:46:45 AM
about nationalism and culture.
what actually does it mean to being a nationalist and to close to your ethnic roots?
doesn't it mean to follow all the old traditions all your ancestors followed as well. to listen and play the music their ancestors listened to and played it, to dress in the tradition they did etc. like they did all over centuries.

but what do the metal heads so. they have long "g-a-y" hair, dress with some black band t-shirt and probably where jeans and make a kind of music all which their ancestors would have considered as pure noise where none of them would discover any kind of traditional german music elements inside. they do all those things their ancestors never did or would have liked.

actually it took that nazis quite a quite to understand that they can not get some new young nazi sympathizers with traditional rather happy march with brass orchestra. so in the 80 they decided to involve other music scene to their ideology to influence the youth. so they send their "agents" to various scene, including metal, techno (and if you believe it or not, even to "hip hop" music). before only the right wing of the skinhead movement spread those ideologies, but in the 80 the nazis displaced their real aesthetic views and accepted even music that they surely don't like if they are real nazis like the NSDAP and started to collaborate with people they actually rather would see as scum if they would talk honest. they even accept g-a-y and self claimed h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-a-l gothics dressed in woman cloths for example as long as they swallow their propaganda. and unfortunately they have now the greatest success in the black metal scene. so if you want to live in harmony with your ethnic roots listen to classical music or march music, but not to metal music.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 09:05:00 AM
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But don't you think there's a certain arrogance inherent in suggesting that your music should be reserved for people who share your views?  Understand I'm not trying to single you out - I feel the same way when Varg pontificates about who Burzum is 'for.'


I think this is the point everyone has been trying to make to you.  Metal just isn't the multicultural phenomenon (at least in its roots) that it seemed you initially implied.  There's a certain incredulity that gets triggered in people when they hear how 'multicultural' metal is from one of the guys in Summoning.  I wouldn't offend your for all the world, my friend, but Summoning couldn't sound  much whiter if you released an album of Hoerst Wessel Lied remixes...


I think we're saying much the same thing.

In any event, this thread is becoming too much about 'National Socialism' and not enough about Summoning, metal, or any other relevant subject, so if you would like to continue to discuss this, I'd be happy to take it to private messages or to email (I can be reached at [email protected] ).


no there is a misunderstanding
i never said that my music is reserved for people with my opinion. i just wanted to make my opinions public and see what other people say to it.

of course the music of summoning sounds totally "white". but thats not the point. i am trying to say that music can sound white even if it has lots of non white elements inside. that actually something a nazis would not have accepted. in the third reich for example swing was not welcome at all, although it was a pure white version of jazz and sounded different from the original jazz.

well surely i can write you but then none else can read what i write and i will not get so many responses.




Iconoclast

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 10:51:12 AM
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Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



Do you think the nazis would have tolerated/accepted death or black metal?

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 11:25:21 AM
Do you think Hitler would have been Hitler in our age? People are as much products of their ancestors and environment, as of their time. Metal is a modern musical expression and to see history linearly is to be mistaken.

It's not the hair or the clothes that are relevant, but the music and the spirit itself. This is what differs modern conservatism from traditionalism: conservatives believe we can preserve tradition by dressing out in pagan clothes and mumble a few words from the Eddas. The traditionalists live the spirit of the tradition, regardless of superificial, external accessories that change with time. Expression and spirit are two different things, and even though they are bound to each other, one must realize that expression is a variable and not a constant, hence why we can create metal today that expresses what our people fought for over 2,000 years ago.

Swing was "whitified" but degenerate and that is why Hitler opposed it. White doesn't make right. Hitler celebrated Wagner and so did Nietzsche - and even though the two of them may have had different artistic conceptions of why Wagner was great, one thing bound them together: spirit, honour, heroism, tradition.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 03:33:34 PM
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Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



You're a fucking moron, shut the fuck up. Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy. Let's just debunk that lovely post of yours:

Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

Overpopulation: Jesus you are fucking retarded. German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

Our movement may need past societies to look up to for their heroism, but the NSDAP isn't one of them. I would have liked to see anyone try to tell Hitler about anti-racist pan-nationalism...

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
April 30, 2007, 03:45:39 PM
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anyway take a look at lord of the rings. take a look at the orc and the haradrims with their oliphaunts that summoning fans rather indentify with than with the good guys. inst it obvious how close the are to more oriental inspired culture. sure tolkien never wanted to express political views in his book, but subconciously you can see very many similarties.


If you look at the societies in The Lord Of The Rings, you can see that the strongest ones are actually very nationalistic. Each society has it's own culture, and interbreeding or migration is rare (and for elves, dwarfs and hobbits, impossible, which is why these are also succesful). Even so, the different societies still manage to work together for common good, to bring down the imperialistic evil ones.

This is an example of anti-racist pan-nationalism, even if much of Austria or anywhere is multi-racial, it can still work. You can still take what you have, remove the most obvious foreign and conflicting elements, and start to reverse the cultural and ethnic blurring of all nations, with clear ideals to aspire to, so we don't all end up the same (like orcs).