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Summoning make stand against fascism

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 04, 2007, 06:59:32 AM
Something additional

Why do all think that fascism is such a great enemy of countries like USA. when i think about the last decades i see that USA never had problems with cooperating with fascistic regimes. they even support them very often if they have the same interests. they did not mind supporting the fascistic pinochet regmie. they did not mind even supporting sadam hussein most of the time. even racism was not such a problem as even the "klue klux klan" was allowed for some time in USA.

but do you know what USA fear most. any kind of  left anti capitalistic ideology in the world because this is the the greatest enemy of capitalism, whereas nazis alway could cope this that quite well.
just take a look at Nicaragua for example. USA was afraid of the socialistic Sandinists and therefore supported the right terrorists (they called them freedom fighters) to fight any tendency i that direction and finally due to terror reached their aims. And imagine the time of "Mc Carthy" where people in USA that had at least a bit connection to any thing left where almost hunted by the government. there was never such a political action against fascism in USA. USA does not mind dictators, disrespect to human rights, lack of freedom; the only thing they don't like are systems that don't suit to their capitalistic system and that don't support the super rich friends of the government.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 04, 2007, 08:02:32 AM
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but i am a person who was borin in the land wher hitler was born and i think i can realise better what real neo nazi want


Lol, that's actually a racist thing to say. Which is btw what I think about racism: everybody is racist to a certain degree. You talk about racism as if it's something exclusively for white people. As if racism is somewhere between adolf hitler and a bunch of drunk rednecks with bad haircuts. But let's try to look at racism as a world-wide phenomenon. Then we can see for instance that the famous socialist leader Pol Pot persecuted the Vietnamese. We can see Hutus and Tutsis killing each other in Rwanda. There is the Turkish 'grey wolves' movement, there is deep-rooted racism in Japan, there are Afro-Americans committing hatecrimes against white Americans... even in my own neighborhood there are north-Africans causing plenty of trouble mostly to white people because colored people can be racist too.

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hardly any regmine nowadays is tolerant. they are just tolerant to ideas that suit their economy. or did you ever hear "osama bin laden" talking in USA television for example?


Replace "regime" with "culture" Every culture is intolerant towards others because they know diluting their culture with others will mean the end of their culture. Only "multi-culture" seeks to assimilate other cultures and why? To turn it into a product and sell it, to exploit other nationalities. If you are against imperialism you should be against immigration, because what they are doing right now is simply a modern form of slavery. If our governments would want to do other countries a favor they would try to fix the problems of that country, but instead they let large corporations try to steal the most capable workers only to exploit them.

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but anyway it is stil not real fascism. because in real fascism you even get to prison if you listen to radio shows that are not controlled by the government


Do you think Varg would still be in prison if he hadn't expressed his ideas so explicitly? It's funny that you bring up Varg Vikernes as an example of why you feel you should speak out against fascist tendencies. No offense but you almost make it sound as if the entire black metal movement is about to build statues for Varg. Many people that I speak to who are into black metal distance themselves from what Varg says. Even Varg himself has had to rectify some of his previous writings, and this was actually what I was referring to when I said that raising politics to this level only raises more issues. To put it simply: Varg went through an incredible amount of shit simply because he expressed his unpopular ideas to a large crowd. Holding him up as an example of why people should speak out against racism doesn't really work for me.

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in imperialism people came to lands like africa and enslaved them. they also took black from africa as slave. do you really want to tell me that that is not a huge damage for country and its culture, or did i understand something wrong?


The Africans that were made slaves were mostly captured by other Africans. The thing is: there was already slavery in Africa before imperialism. Take the pyramids for instance: everybody agrees that they are historical wonders, no one is saying "think of all the poor slaves that died to build these things for their decadent pharaohs." Do you think the white traders would go deep into Africa to capture slaves? That would have been too dangerous for them. Instead they simply traded with the local African tribes who lived in the coastal areas and bought the slaves that those tribes had already taken. So you see slave trade isn't an exclusively white business and most of the slaves were already slaves. Also many of the guards and watchmen on the cotton-plantations were black. And the slaves in Suriname were actually released after some years of duty, and now they make up most of the population there (a funny detail to this is that the Suriname people who protest against slavery would not have been born if slavery had not existed, the same can be said for the Afro-Americans, a Suriname girl told me about this detail btw)

I accept slavery as something that was common in those days, and as something that is not exclusively done by white people. I know you (Protector) were not saying that but the stereotype was beginning to surface so I felt I had to point this out.

And most of the third world countries have been destroyed by civil war and aids, not because "the white people left them that way" suggesting that is ridiculous. They were given their independence and messed up due to their own corruption. Oh, and of course if the US intervenes it's bad (Iraq) but if the US doesn't intervene it's bad too (Rwanda) so how exactly are white people to blame for what still happens in those countries? This whole putting the blame on white people is not realistic, it's racist. Acknowledging that some people are limited and are for instance not ready yet to lead their own country is not racist, it's realistic.


Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 04, 2007, 08:40:13 AM
Now to completely wipe the board on the whole "foreign influences in music" argument based on the descent of certain instruments:

The potato is originally from Peru. Yet the potato is served in a variety of cultural dishes. 'Sauerkraut und kartoffeln" is not considered as something typically Peruvian. So why would metal be "n-i-g-g-e-r" music even if it features Spanish guitars and Arab percussion? The sand from the Sahara desert makes its way on the wind into my country, should I try to separate the African sand from my native Dutch sand because otherwise our beaches wouldn't be Dutch anymore? The answer seems obvious to me. And it also seems obvious to me that the argument that "if an instrument isn't really white you are not really playing white music" is ludicrous. May all people who once took this point of view discard it for what it is: an argument that appeals to extremism but not to rationalism.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 04, 2007, 09:12:45 AM
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the strange thing is that people seem to see modern nazis as some kind of tollerant and flexible iideology. but they are narrow minded. most people here got intot this nazi movement because of varg vikingers, i am very sure about that, so i think they did not get the connection to the real nazis. but i am a person who was borin in the land wher hitler was born and i think i can realise better what real neo nazi want.

You accept and take for granted the post-war definitions and interpretations of National Socialism and Fascism, which are not only fed to us by the media but also by "popular consensus", which includes our parents, friends, co-workers, schoolmates, etc., who, in social situations, force us to accept these interpretations, which all have been undertaken from a capitalist and/or communist viewpoint. Everyone in a group of such people, who does not follow the "popular consensus", who does not take part in this mass-delusion, is ostracized and hated.

We oppose this approach to truth. We acknowledge that a doctrine and its implementation are not one and the same, and that the world is not black and white; some aspects of a doctrine can be embraced while others disregarded, and doing so is not subject to moral agenda.

When criticizing Fascism, it is the doctrine of Fascism which must be the criticised, as it is the true center of Fascism. If one misses the target by not focusing on the doctrine, or aspects of it, the criticism is in vain. The manifestation of Fascism is only a more remote, weaker reality.

Of course, this applies to other political manifestations as well.

Besides, Fascism and National Socialism are not the same. Only in leftist Newspeak is the latter included in the former.

As an example of how confused the modern definition of Fascism really is, where it becomes an insult and a moral weapon, I have uploaded here a .doc(ument) called "The Doctrine of Fascism" (ot. La Dottrina del Fascismo) for all those who are interested in understanding Fascism. The English is quite simple. It is available, in book-form, in German translation ("Der Geist des Faschismus").

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 04, 2007, 09:29:11 AM
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when i said "roots" i mean that metal derived from blues that mainly black even if it has celtic influences. and without blues there would not have been metal for sure. ok you are right, i should maybe change it with "the history of metal and the styles it came from was heavily influenced by black music culture".


I have to disagree here. The blues, like rock n roll itself, is an American moneymaking invention that is aesthetic only: it brings nothing new to the music.

The pentatonic was well known in Celtic, Chinese, Indian and German folk music. The 12-bar blues structure was also well known. So was syncopation, although it was rarely applied constantly (German waltz drumming, however, is the origin of jazz). The blues, like rock, is a marketing invention and not a musical one.

I don't want to get into the politics here, but I'd like to inject a note of reality to the music history aspect of it. All of what you've been told has come from an industry that receives massive material reward for claiming exclusivity to certain art forms. Yet these art forms are as unique as the marketing invention of putting yogurt in a disposable, sealed cup -- it's still yogurt.

I recently heard the Ice Ages project and thought it intriguing. With you channeling certain impulses toward Ice Ages, does this mean the music of Summoning will change? Also, do you feel Summoning will reach toward more diversity of mood in the way Burzum did? I like "Oath Bound" quite a bit but find it stays too much within the same mood for daily listening. I thought Dol Guldur was more diverse in this regard, and so more listenable on a daily basis.



Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 05, 2007, 10:22:30 AM
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As an example of how confused the modern definition of Fascism really is, where it becomes an insult and a moral weapon, I have uploaded here a .doc(ument) called "The Doctrine of Fascism" (ot. La Dottrina del Fascismo) for all those who are interested in understanding Fascism. The English is quite simple. It is available, in book-form, in German translation ("Der Geist des Faschismus").


...or read it online here. Long Live Mussolini!

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 05, 2007, 06:48:57 PM
Italians aren't white.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 05, 2007, 09:36:35 PM
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I have to disagree here. The blues, like rock n roll itself, is an American moneymaking invention that is aesthetic only: it brings nothing new to the music.

The pentatonic was well known in Celtic, Chinese, Indian and German folk music. The 12-bar blues structure was also well known. So was syncopation, although it was rarely applied constantly (German waltz drumming, however, is the origin of jazz). The blues, like rock, is a marketing invention and not a musical one.

I don't want to get into the politics here, but I'd like to inject a note of reality to the music history aspect of it. All of what you've been told has come from an industry that receives massive material reward for claiming exclusivity to certain art forms. Yet these art forms are as unique as the marketing invention of putting yogurt in a disposable, sealed cup -- it's still yogurt.


While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.

Speaking of Ice Ages, I have another question for Protector.  Is there any chance of the Ice Ages debut being re-released?

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 06, 2007, 07:49:45 AM
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While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.


Hmm, if a Black friend of mine shows me a scale that exists in my own culture, does it make my scale Black ?

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 06, 2007, 12:20:45 PM
I agree with what Protector said about metal music and Nazism. They wouldn't have supported it in the slightest. However as a home grown form of art and not a foreign import, it's more likely they would have simply discouraged it rather than ban it outright, as they were wont to do with art they thought of as degenerate.

However I echo the line people are saying about fascism - its doctrine needs to be seperated from implementation.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 06, 2007, 01:58:39 PM
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While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.


Yes, but if the blues inherited them from another form, why stop at the blues as an ancestor? There's only one reason why people consider blues and rock to be unique: marketing. Research the history and you will see this is true.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 07, 2007, 11:40:31 PM
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Besides, Fascism and National Socialism are not the same. Only in leftist Newspeak is the latter included in the former.


I was thinking about this today. Hitler and Mussolini are so taboo there is no way to even talk about them, or write about them, so if people read books written after 1945 (if people still read books) or talk to anyone living, they get a really bigoted, skewed view.

The funny thing is that the "Nazis" of today are the worst about it. Most are like Republicans as interpreted by radical communists, with racial hatred on top of it. They have no unifying ideology. I think that's what Protector was talking about, and why he doesn't like Today's Nazis.

Iconoclast

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 08, 2007, 02:24:40 AM
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I was thinking about this today. Hitler and Mussolini are so taboo there is no way to even talk about them, or write about them, so if people read books written after 1945 (if people still read books) or talk to anyone living, they get a really bigoted, skewed view.

The funny thing is that the "Nazis" of today are the worst about it. Most are like Republicans as interpreted by radical communists, with racial hatred on top of it. They have no unifying ideology. I think that's what Protector was talking about, and why he doesn't like Today's Nazis.


I don't think yesterday's nazis had a lot going for them, either.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 09, 2007, 12:02:32 AM
They were a lot smarter than government now. Even the Soviets were smarter than government now, just incompetent. Europe and the USA are living off the wealth of the past and have no clue. Asia's even worse off.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
May 12, 2007, 11:10:17 AM
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Lol, that's actually a racist thing to say. Which is btw what I think about racism: everybody is racist to a certain degree. You talk about racism as if it's something exclusively for white people. As if racism is somewhere between adolf hitler and a bunch of drunk rednecks with bad haircuts. But let's try to look at racism as a world-wide phenomenon. Then we can see for instance that the famous socialist leader Pol Pot persecuted the Vietnamese. We can see Hutus and Tutsis killing each other in Rwanda. There is the Turkish 'grey wolves' movement, there is deep-rooted racism in Japan, there are Afro-Americans committing hatecrimes against white Americans... even in my own neighborhood there are north-Africans causing plenty of trouble mostly to white people because colored people can be racist too.


Replace "regime" with "culture" Every culture is intolerant towards others because they know diluting their culture with others will mean the end of their culture. Only "multi-culture" seeks to assimilate other cultures and why? To turn it into a product and sell it, to exploit other nationalities. If you are against imperialism you should be against immigration, because what they are doing right now is simply a modern form of slavery. If our governments would want to do other countries a favor they would try to fix the problems of that country, but instead they let large corporations try to steal the most capable workers only to exploit them.


Do you think Varg would still be in prison if he hadn't expressed his ideas so explicitly? It's funny that you bring up Varg Vikernes as an example of why you feel you should speak out against fascist tendencies. No offense but you almost make it sound as if the entire black metal movement is about to build statues for Varg. Many people that I speak to who are into black metal distance themselves from what Varg says. Even Varg himself has had to rectify some of his previous writings, and this was actually what I was referring to when I said that raising politics to this level only raises more issues. To put it simply: Varg went through an incredible amount of shit simply because he expressed his unpopular ideas to a large crowd. Holding him up as an example of why people should speak out against racism doesn't really work for me.


The Africans that were made slaves were mostly captured by other Africans. The thing is: there was already slavery in Africa before imperialism. Take the pyramids for instance: everybody agrees that they are historical wonders, no one is saying "think of all the poor slaves that died to build these things for their decadent pharaohs." Do you think the white traders would go deep into Africa to capture slaves? That would have been too dangerous for them. Instead they simply traded with the local African tribes who lived in the coastal areas and bought the slaves that those tribes had already taken. So you see slave trade isn't an exclusively white business and most of the slaves were already slaves. Also many of the guards and watchmen on the cotton-plantations were black. And the slaves in Suriname were actually released after some years of duty, and now they make up most of the population there (a funny detail to this is that the Suriname people who protest against slavery would not have been born if slavery had not existed, the same can be said for the Afro-Americans, a Suriname girl told me about this detail btw)

I accept slavery as something that was common in those days, and as something that is not exclusively done by white people. I know you (Protector) were not saying that but the stereotype was beginning to surface so I felt I had to point this out.

And most of the third world countries have been destroyed by civil war and aids, not because "the white people left them that way" suggesting that is ridiculous. They were given their independence and messed up due to their own corruption. Oh, and of course if the US intervenes it's bad (Iraq) but if the US doesn't intervene it's bad too (Rwanda) so how exactly are white people to blame for what still happens in those countries? This whole putting the blame on white people is not realistic, it's racist. Acknowledging that some people are limited and are for instance not ready yet to lead their own country is not racist, it's realistic.




no that is not racisitic.
again i notice that people simply dont understand the real meaning of  racism.
racism mean that your "race" rules everythign else. for a racist any j-e-w for example can never be a nice honest person, al the attitudes he connects with the  j-e-w race are projected to any person belonging to this

it does not mean taht a person that grew up in another nation has different habbits and different experiences. thats essential!!!!
a person from a different "race" who grew up in austria with austrian traditions is surley much more like an austrian than an austrian who grew up in another country with all its traditions

about immigration.
sure i would prefer if the ruling contries would not act like some super emperors and if all those super rtich concerns would not exployt other countries and if no person in the world would be in such a fucked up situation that he has to move to another country. but i dont udnerstand why all this hate goes to all those people who had to leave their country because of hunger and poverty, wheras all those mega huge concerns are no real problem for them.

why should varg not be in prision. he is a murderer, and the reason for his murder is a total shitty one, because of some money he wanted back.  whats for you a fair penality for a murder?. why do people always forget that he is a murderer. in real fascism he would already be executed as any other murderer btw!!

about the third wold contries.
i think it is strange that this nazi movement in black metal started as a kind of continuation of this pagen movement. first they got all so sad what those evil christians did with their country and how they spoiled their folk, and finally they came to nazi ideologies. but what all those christians did with the nordic culture is NOTHING compared what the europeans did with the africans.

but you are right. slavery is no intention of the white. but this does not make slavery better.