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Summoning make stand against fascism

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 09, 2007, 05:55:45 AM

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 09, 2007, 05:54:50 PM
I know they already did you mincer. You really think after the schooling I've given you all that you could pick me up on a fact like this?

I just did pick you up on a fact like that.

But this isn't about you and me, it's about what's real and what's not.

Back to the discussion.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 02, 2009, 04:23:20 PM
While I agree with the sentiments of this writing, I have to point out bad logic because it's still nonsense.

Metal music has historically been heavily influenced by black music. First there was blues music done mainly by black people, then rock developed from blues, and finally metal developed from rock music. Metal has no roots in any of the old Germanic tribes at all. Any metal fan thinking that his music is an Aryan one is simply wrong, and singing German does not make this music traditional white music. Nazis in the third reich called music like blues (as well as jazz) "African-American music" and therefore would also not have liked metal music either.

This is well-intentioned nonsense. The blues form came from English sailing songs, the pentatonic scale with blue note was in use through Asia and the Middle East and its offspring, the Celtic Iberians who carried the knowledge of their Phoenician forebears. It's no more a black form than an Asian form. It also takes advantage of western tuning and music theory, so to call it alien music is just as racist as to claim blacks invented nothing.

The bass drum used in metal music derived from the bass drum used in jazz, which is originally the Turkish bass drum "davul". Cymbals of any kind have Chinese roots, also with Turkish influences. The same goes for tom toms.

Again, this is well-intentioned but not correct. Each continent invented the drum, and the bass drum was used in waltz and polka music long before jazz.

- The oboe derived from the Arabic "mizmar" (or "zurna" in turkish), which later became a shalm and finally the oboe as we know it.
- The lute is nothing other than the Arabic "oud". Not even the shape has changed.

- The guitar is Spanish as well as Mauritanian (that's probably why "Varg Vikernes" once called them "African-American instruments" and therefore stopped playing guitars in "Burzum").

- The violin derived from the Persian instrument "rebab". It is well known that Persians are "Aryans" as well, but anyway they don't belong to the old Germanic tribes.

- The complete percussion section in European orchestra music comes from the Turkish military music of the Ottoman empire called "Janissary" music.

It is a shame this person never looked past the origins of these instruments. They have been heavily modified over the years, and many come from indigenous rather than foreign forms. Nothing is mysterious about developing stringed instruments. The guitar and banjo in particular are entirely different instruments than their original forms.

All those Varg Vikernes-admirers thinking that a nation can only survive if it is clean and pure should take a short look at the Ottoman empire that was an extremely multi-cultural nation and lasted 624 years - that's 52 times longer than The Third Reich

Oh, he shouldn't venture into history he doesn't understand -- the Ottoman empire was a political convenience that created vast destruction during its time and then collapsed inward.

If you think you are an individualist or rebel because you like fascism then you are wrong. There is no space for individualism in fascist regimes. In fascism conformity and obedience are the most important value. This goes for Nazi Germany as well as the Stalin-Soviet Union. Fascism means extreme conformity and following orders and leaders. You have to be a working component in the huge fascist system - thinking for yourself will disturb this system.

And when everyone doesn't conform together, you have dysfunction like we have now. Look at our malls: everyone is different, yet they're doing the same things. He's on another bad argument here.

Another problem I notice often is that people can not decide between fascism, racism and nationalism. Those are three different things that don't necessarily have to be connected. Fascism means the maximum of conformity and control of its people, racism means a simplified way to understand people personality by just considering their race, and nationalism means to be free from other national influences. You can be a non-racist nationalist for example. Gandhi was something like that - he wanted to keep India free from English reign but was surely not a racist. On the other hand the Nazis were not strict nationalists. They still supported colonies for Germany, they always wanted to increase their German "master race" and take space from other countries for that etc. To be true nationalists they should have cared about their historically ground, their historically culture and not mess around in countries they didn't belong to.

This is why people don't take metalheads seriously. Fascism has a strong nationalistic component, and no nationalist society is so stupid as not to borrow intelligent inventions wherever they find them. Didn't he berate them earlier for being too symbol-conscious? The ultimate freedom from symbol-consciousness is to take good ideas, improve them, and integrate them into your own. He seems like a closet xenophobe here.

I prefer to be proud about things i did or am responsible for, but I never ever could feel pride for things I could not even decide upon.

Why not be proud of both? Are you not proud of humanity for its accomplishments?

I choose friends because of their personality, not because of their ethnicity.

When was politics about choosing friends? It's about choosing a sensible political plan.

If you like the old Germanic tribes, their traditions and their runes etc., that's fine. The ancient culture of your own nation is probably the most obvious one to deal with if you are interested in ancient cultures; I also have a Germanic drinking-horn hanging on my wall btw. But it is a huge mistake to think that you can accent those likings by supporting the Nazi regime. Apart from some runes on some uniforms they did not bring back any Germanic symbols or traditions. On the contrary they even supported the greatest historical enemies of the Germanic tribes, the ancient Roman empires. Here's some info proving this statement: Hitler decided to name his new empire the "Third Reich" because he considered the so called "Holy Roman Empire Of German Nation" (that lasted from the medieval times till 1806) as the first one, and the "German Empire" (from 1871 to 1918) as the second one. He even kept the Catholic and Protestant Religion as the main religion in Germany and did not really bring back the old gods like Odin etc. During the Third Reich they had a good relation to the Church, and the Pope and other important people from the Church even blessed the weapons of the German army. I am an atheist so I believe neither in Odin, God nor any other kind of higher force. I just wanted to show that Nazis did not care about old historic Germanic traditions very much, and saw the Christianisation of the German tribe as the real rise of the German empire.

Dear me, someone didn't pay much attention in high school history!

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.


24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.


And he could have seen that so easily.

I support total freedom in speech and thought, and even a Nazi should be free to say whatever he thinks. For me forbidding special thoughts or opinions does not fit into a democratic society.

But dear heart, Nazis do not want a democratic society, nor do we have any proof democratic societies are all that great. Plato and Aristotle, for example, saw them as stages of decay.

Original black metal has no national socialistic elements, so you are not more "true" or whatever if you follow national socialistic tendencies. For example Burzum makes good music which influenced us a lot at the beginning of Summoning, but this was never a reason for us to follow his ideologies because we always preferred to think for ourselves.

He makes a mistake here, which is to assume that people who follow Nazi ideologies are not thinking for themselves. There's no proof of that.

Original black metal? He must not mean Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved and Darkthrone, all of whom were fiercely nationalistic and supported natural selection. They may not be Nazis, but they are certainly not anti-Nazi in their beliefs.

There is nothing wrong if you only love your own culture and don't like other ones; nobody can force anybody to like anything, but what I want to add is that you cannot escape foreign influences even if you listen to pure European music. Of course European culture found its own way during the centuries and now doesn't have much to do with its outside influences, but it cannot be denied that without those influences, it would not exist.

Why does purity of population have to entail a closed mind to good ideas from outside that population? This makes no sense.

For example Summoning definitely does not sound like blues, nor do we have any other obvious foreign influences, but like any other kind of music derived from metal it would not exist without it. That might be self-evident for some but not for narrow-minded Nazis who want to remove anything they thought is not pure German styled - even if there is the slightest non-German influence in it (like the above mentioned fracture letters). I personally don't like hip hop at all for example, but as it is so easy to turn off a radio or switch off a tv show i have no problems with it. I like being free to decide what I have to do, to like etc. and don't want any dictator deciding for me what i have to do, like etc.

He seems to forget that jazz was legal but discouraged during the Third Reich years in Germany.

While I am an avowed supporter of diversity, and a foe of all totalitarian systems, this writing is a shambles of repeated internet memes, half truths, historical ignorance and bad arguments. It does nothing except confirm the stereotype that metalheads drop out before the second year of high school.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 03, 2009, 04:30:16 AM
this writing is a shambles of repeated internet memes, half truths, historical ignorance and bad arguments. It does nothing except confirm the stereotype that metalheads drop out before the second year of high school.

No, in this case it rather confirms that he repeats very well what is taught in European public schools and "under-contract-with-the-state" private schools since the last decades (and the movement is accelerating, courses are getting worse and worse over the years).

Today in class it's all about how great other cultures than your own are, and how ridiculous, ugly, pretentious and nasty your own culture and heritage is. Most real history is dropped out in favor of pseudo-humanistic ramblings about how bad the whole Middle-Ages, Christianity, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Monarchy, the Colonization and Nationalisms were altogether ; teachers force down your throat that you are guilty of having done bad things to just about every other people on Earth and that you have to repay for that today under the form of massive Third-World immigration in your country ; and in place of historical continuity with a chronological approach, you get dozens of exploded "historical" fragments that are not presented in any logical fashion, have nothing in common with each other and are full of lies and highly partial judgments (Mediterranean muslim pirates were great and occupied Spain is the ultimate model to follow, while cathedrals are shit and the highly-civilized France doesn't count for anything). To put it short, we live in a Masonic world that hates everything which is not highly cosmopolitan and rootless, and is waging a war against all traditions ; first promoting hedonism and "light" versions of foreign pseudo-traditions before your own heritage to destroy yours, and later destroying the foreign traditions too so that you are left with nothing but Communism, Capitalism, Lodges and the Kabbalah.

Protector of Summoning just shows that while his music kind of escaped this, he as an individual couldn't manage to.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
September 07, 2009, 11:08:57 PM
I think Richard Lederer (Protector) is being a little too protective and self-defensive over what seems to be the tampering of a run-of-the-mill neo-Nazi who makes fake videos for YouTube (or JewTube as they would call it).

He goes far too deep in redundancy of his defense against fascism and all this other crap than necessary, which only reveals how he hasn't read enough history in general (let alone the roots of different music and of metal in general) and that he's just another parroting "anti-racist/race traitor" sap with modern-day politically correct thought patterns...and if that's NOT true...then I agree that he could've simply replied that Summoning is a-political and that whomever made a "Windows Movie Maker Music Video" of Nazi propaganda footage with a Summoning song dubbed over it is an imbecile and should be banned from YouTube - just shut up and leave the band alone.

Remember the rule of Occam Razor:  the best explanation is probably the simplest one.  In this case:  Some idiot white supremacist who also likes some black metal decided out of boredom to make a "music video" of the Third Reich with Summoning as its soundtrack - disrespecting the integrity of the band/artist.  End of story...

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 14, 2010, 07:09:46 PM
Darken also distances himself from the labels fascist, NSBM, and so forth.

Graveland is a pagan metal and black metal band from Wroclaw, Poland which was formed in 1992 by Rob Darken (Robert Fudali). Darken, who started Graveland as a solo project, was inspired by early black metal such as Bathory and Burzum’s early works; but starting with “Thousand Swords”, the band took on a powerful folk influence. As a result, later Graveland has sometimes been described as Viking metal or Pagan metal.


It's just some of the fans politicizing the musician. Maybe they're unaware that it takes a world superpower with an army, not a handful of musicians, to implement the fascist ideal.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 15, 2010, 10:04:09 PM
Taking the egalitarian standpoint that Summoning has done only shows a fear of the liberal media and they're power to influence record sales. Nihilistically approaching a situation like the holocaust will yield a common occurence. Since when did this shit not happen in Armenia? I also suppose that the blameless Hebrews didn't ruthlessly slaughter the Canaanites either? There's just scriptural accounts of these happenings that's ritualized in three sub-religions.

I was going to explore Summoning, but I think a celebration of WASP's catalog in all of its vainglorius nonsense would make better sense in comparison.

In summation: Summoning is orcish for an ideological Pussyfart.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 16, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I don't want to be the jerk who doubts Protector's honesty and goodwill, but:

* Summoning are still in a part of the world where admitting to liking anything Third Reichy can mean a prison sentence
* Bands who are known to be fascist have trouble selling their CDs, going on tour, or getting into mainstream publications
* Many of us have friends who are non-white, and we like these people and don't want to hurt their feelings
* Fascists and neo-Nazis have, quite honestly, not shown themselves to be astute or even admirable in the postwar period
* Liberal politics is binary: you're either assumed to be liberal, or you're a racist, and then you face all kinds of demonization

I'd probably do the same thing if I were Summoning: make some statement against fascism or neo-Nazism, and copy it from other sites like they seem to have done, making it incompetent enough to clue in others that it's there for Political Compliance and distrust of the neo-Nazi establishment, not some ideological hatred of all things the Nazis did. Everyone on earth agrees with most of what the Nazis did, but a lot of us have problems with (a) the Holocaust and (b) modern neo-Nazis, white nationalists and other hamsters.

Don't let it ruin your enjoyment of Summoning. However, once you've got Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul and Nightshade Forests, stop -- those are the good albums and everything else is repetition.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 17, 2010, 01:30:13 PM
^Or Protector really is that ideologically incoherent, while somehow being simultaneously blessed with musical near-genius. We don't need to make excuses in defense of his persona - unless we're personal friends of his, or he becomes some sort of political leader, "who he is" could not be less important.

Summoning is one of maybe three current musical acts who have made nothing but good albums, and each with their own sense of being. Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame is their lowest point, and the only one that might justifiably be called repetitive as it is little more than a maudlin distillation of every technique that preceded it - and even that is above par.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 18, 2010, 08:53:58 AM
^Or Protector really is that ideologically incoherent, while somehow being simultaneously blessed with musical near-genius. We don't need to make excuses in defense of his persona - unless we're personal friends of his, or he becomes some sort of political leader, "who he is" could not be less important.

Summoning is one of maybe three current musical acts who have made nothing but good albums, and each with their own sense of being. Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame is their lowest point, and the only one that might justifiably be called repetitive as it is little more than a maudlin distillation of every technique that preceded it - and even that is above par.

I think Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame tops Stronghold. It does away with a lot of the cheese and plays in a simpler, but still imaginative and evocative style. Either way they are both solid albums, even if they aren't as great as their earlier works.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 18, 2010, 09:15:10 AM
I used to think Stronghold was their weakest, and that Let Mortal Heroes Sing your Fame topped both it and Oath Bound. Over time, I've come to see the error in my thinking. How is Stronghold less cheesy than the subsequent album? The latter is essentially just a D&D soundtrack, and it's the only album by Summoning that actually strikes me as cheesy at all.

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 21, 2010, 08:49:03 PM
I don't see the significance of the origin of the instruments. Depending on how you see it, dogs were either domesticated in East Asia or the Middle East. Should Nazis not own dogs because of this? The earliest bread has been traced to Egypt. Should Nazis not eat bread? The examples are endless.

Varg - "Comparing an instrument with a music culture is rather odd, I think. It is like comparing letters with languages. I can use Latin letters when I write Russian, and it will still be Russian, right? But if I write another language with Russian letters, it will not be Russian anyhow. See my point?.... So if I use an instrument made by a Jew to play European music the music will still be European. Or for that sake: these answers are not American, even though I use an American invention - the PC - when I answer the question. Right?"

Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
June 24, 2010, 09:31:21 AM
I don't see the significance of the origin of the instruments.

Especially since they use European tunings, scales and harmony.