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Elitism

Elitism
October 07, 2007, 01:36:29 PM
I managed to piss of a few of you with my posts, which is good, because angry people think harder than numb ones. This brought up some good questions.

I don't know if "elitism" is the right word for what is practiced here. I think it's just common sense. If you have heard 100 CDs, you realize you don't want to spend time on the crappy ones, and after you've heard 10,000 CDs you probably get even more cynical. This isn't bad because it raises your standards.

If the metal artform presented a few high quality bands, it would be seen as high quality music for intelligent people, and would draw more intelligent people in, which would make the next generations even better. This is a "process" and not a material result, because it doesn't happen once, but continuously. Our society thinks poorly in terms of process.

If there is a reason for elitism, it's healthy natural selection to keep the genre alive. When some band is crap and I know it, I can say that, but someone who has heard 1/10 the CDs I have or is dumber than I am might not know it. The question is how to explain that to other people.

From Immolation (the user), I got this question:

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I was recently involved in an email "battle" with someone I know, who insists that underground metal owes its existence to the hair metal crap of the 80s. Here are some excerpts:
 
Me: ‘Those bands are irrelevant to real metal/underground metal.’
 
He: define ‘real metal’? while you are at it, please enlighten the universe on irrelevance of those bands to any form of metal, underground or otherwise.  
 
Me: “All this is just the usual namedropping that people do, and a lot of those bands have nothing to do with underground metal or old school metal musicwise”
 
 
He: I was illustrating a point, one obviously you’ve chosen not to acknowledge, as has anyone discounting importance of commercially successful metal bands in the formative years of the genre. the point was without those artists, most of the music  
you love today would never have existed, nor would the majority of the bands you presently follow be able to peruse their musical aspirations. and there lies to solution to awake dormant metal/rock scene.  
 
Me: If good metal bands gave a damn about the 'general populace' wouldn't they obviously be making a genre of music that is easy money and has something popular to say?’
 
He: a fairly obtuse observation. if musicians ever followed this equation, we would still be listening to some strange form of tribal music involving beating rocks together. you, like many on this board, think that people involved in music pick a genre at some point and say: ‘okay this is my ticket to millions’. that’s not how it works. while there is no denying influence from outside forces, overall musicians make the music they enjoy and subject matter that is relevant to them (que ‘shock-horror-gasp’ reaction). The general populace is likewise and most are generally are open minded to all types of music so long as they can understand it


I'd like to get him a good answer there and point out to the world how important this question is.

Next from the ol IM-bag here, there's a whine and question from Thamuz (the user)

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I probably should have made it clearer: for the most part I certainly do not disagree with where you are coming from, just how you are communicating it.
 
My experiences in life thus far have taught me that communication is important. It is not just what you say but also how you say it.
 
If you are to come off as arrogant, selfish, pretentious and pigheaded then no one is really going to listen to you. That is not to say that you should tone it down to liberalistic pandering, but I think there is a better approach than the whole "I am better than 99% of people, you are all useless unless you do X and Y" tact. It is far too hyperbolic in the first place.
 
Also, be careful when you draw lines in the sand. Sometimes you segregate people who would be helpful to your cause.
 
I don't watch TV, read comics or listen to stand-up comedy but I spend my "down time" in various other ways. We all need a break from work & making a difference, I think the key is moderation and balance. Aristotle summed this up better than I can, read him instead.  
 
The fact that ANUS has created an 'us vs them' dichotomy when in reality it is far more complicated than that is stopping it from achieving its objectives in my opinion.  
 
I'll use myself as an example because I think it applies to a wide variety of people:
 
If you are accusing me of being useless because I happened to spend a night playing a few games with friends over a beer then why would I bother contributing to your project? In my case I have already contributed two articles to ANUS / Corrupt so you can easily see what you would be missing out on if I did not like the attitude of those who belong to this community (that is the so called future). If you don't like people, you refuse to work with them. There are always other options.
 
Of course you never attacked me personally, but the example is enlightening if you want to see it from a general perspective.
 
I just don't think that cutting yourself off from 99.5% of people is the right way to go. That's all. There is no excuse to spend time waiting for the morons to listen, but the 10-20% of people below the super-intelligent is who you have to educate and encourage if you want things to change. I am not super-intelligent or elite or however you would like to put it so I think I speak for a lot of people. Is bashing them senseless with your superiority talk going to achieve much? Being an arsehole will make you no allies.


Although he's a cum-guzzling metrosexual, I don't entirely disagree with him. What I do disagree with is dumbing down the message, because even idiots can spot insincerity eventually, and for us to become more like everyone else is to neutralize our message. What I agree with is that some of us myself included could be less abrasive. I will not however apologize for my demands of quality, but I may not call it elitism.

I think the message that would be most constructive is that you as a person can get more powerful and feel more self-esteem by rejecting crappy music because crap music makes you think you're only worth crappy music. You can educate yourself and rise above the masses by insisting on meaning, not filler.

Of course this will be lost on the genetically stupid, but everything except Cannibal Corpse is lost on them.


Re: Elitism
October 07, 2007, 03:03:16 PM
Elitism lets the people who do not understand it work it out by themselves. It is self-limiting, and reveals itself to those who are dedicated/trained enough to attempt it.

However elitism isn't why people are pissed off with you.

K

Re: Elitism
October 07, 2007, 07:03:53 PM
I've never really had a problem with your content, just that the context you put things in sometimes seems like petty inflammatory comments geared towards other members (also starting topics occasionally which had already been thoroughly discussed). I agree with you about 60-70% of the time, but even if I don't agree with the things said on this forum, I still, unless it is very stupid, get some use from them. (example
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cum guzzling metrosexual

Re: Elitism
October 08, 2007, 05:33:33 PM
See he is still picking on that one word from a much longer post.

Let that be a lesson to all you new-comers to the internet.  Never use the word "elite" around a troll or else every other thing you said will be ignored while he goes on a "Just because I'm better doesn't mean I'm elite" rant.


Sometimes Born For Banning seems intelligent, but that's only when he is repeating things he has read (mostly on this site).  In all other instances, he is just petty and looks for chances for revenge.

Re: Elitism
October 08, 2007, 06:41:42 PM
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I managed to piss of a few of you with my posts, which is good, because angry people think harder than numb ones. This brought up some good questions.


Angry people will usually respond with reactionary impulses that are full of holes when viewed in a less hormone-fueled light. I've been hanging around this board for a couple of years now (before you were here- at least in your current incarnation) and there has been this issue of useful people being put down by the angry, cynical ones cropping up now and then, but I don't think any 'elitist' on this board is inherently bad, and I've learned something from many of your posts, though been highly amused by the ludicrousy of some others.

Re: Elitism
October 09, 2007, 07:12:59 AM
I would like to further expand where I was going with my "whine and question":

When I think about the things I want to achieve in life and who I want to achieve them with I instantly recall my family and friends. It is human to have a longing to share experiences and feats with those who are important to us.

That's why I sort of think that the more bitter "most people suck at X or Y" forms of promotion (even if I agree with the ideals that they are based on) only go so far as to spreading the message.

I think it is easier to educate people when they have had some sort of respect for you before hand.

I encourage people to contact users who seem intelligent on other forums or such with questions in private messages and such that are designed to spark conversations. They don't even have to be ANUS related. You will find that conversation can branch out and before you know it the person is more enamoured with you and is more willing to listen to your "threatening Nazi ideals" when it suits to bring them up in a polite manner.

If everyone on this forum made a couple of relationships like this we may get more interested users. Repeat process a few times with the new users and you have thousands.

"Pen pals" might sound corny, but they can be bloody effective. It's an untapped promotional facility for this community.

I also feel that this is more in line with what I have got from my years of being exposed to the type of nihilism that ANUS promotes as opposed to propaganda and rhetoric.

Re: Elitism
October 17, 2007, 11:14:50 AM
Most people don't understand the difference between elitism and meritocracy; even less they understand the difference between a douche bag and polemicist.

Re: Elitism
October 21, 2007, 09:22:26 PM
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That's why I sort of think that the more bitter "most people suck at X or Y" forms of promotion (even if I agree with the ideals that they are based on) only go so far as to spreading the message.

I think it is easier to educate people when they have had some sort of respect for you before hand.

I encourage people to contact users who seem intelligent on other forums or such with questions in private messages and such that are designed to spark conversations. They don't even have to be ANUS related. You will find that conversation can branch out and before you know it the person is more enamoured with you and is more willing to listen to your "threatening Nazi ideals" when it suits to bring them up in a polite manner.

If everyone on this forum made a couple of relationships like this we may get more interested users. Repeat process a few times with the new users and you have thousands.


I agree. I wonder if there is also not a place for acerbic rhetoric, especially to encourage people on forums to be less dramatic and thin-skinned.


Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 01:59:36 AM
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there has been this issue of useful people being put down by the angry, cynical ones cropping up now and then


That's what worries me.

There's also the issue of people bringing delusion they've been taught elsewhere in here, and they then parrot it.

That bothers me too.

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 02:18:36 AM
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Most people don't understand the difference between elitism and meritocracy;


I'm not so sure there is a difference of any significance.

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 03:01:29 AM
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I'm not so sure there is a difference of any significance.


1.      practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2.      consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elitism

1.      an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth.
2.      a system in which such persons are rewarded and advanced: The dean believes the educational system should be a meritocracy.
3.      leadership by able and talented persons.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meritocracy

Elitism can be deceptive.

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 08:22:47 AM
Even with that secondary definition you highlighted- which is slightly different than my what Oxford dictionary says - elitism is just a description of the behavior (or consciousness if you like) within the upper level members of a meritocracy. Also, I'm not sure if 'elite' and 'select or favored group' are the same.

Can you point out what you think the relevant differences are?

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 08:37:46 AM
I don't want to get entangled in semantics, especially since English is not my first language.

Let's just say that elitism is the belief that being a certain kind of person (i.e. part of a clique with arbitrary selection such as external quality) makes you better than the rest, while meritocracy calls for real ability and function.

Simply saying: elitism doesn't guarantee merit.

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 08:58:36 AM
Elitism can be applied well and badly.

Elitism alone is the mindset which filters out undesired traits. Unfortunately, since elitism is arbitrary, it needs meritocratic control for real talent and ability or we end up with ridiculous in-groups:
- bigoted White Nationalists who achieve nothing
- Pantera fans
- retards who like Jazz

These all exist only to give pleasure to the in-group members; merit demans that we look beyond individual preferences and wants.

When elite and merit combine, a new wave of high culture is born: there is desire to get forward and see that it doesn't stop too soon.

Re: Elitism
October 22, 2007, 07:44:19 PM
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Let's just say that elitism is the belief that being a certain kind of person (i.e. part of a clique with arbitrary selection such as external quality) makes you better than the rest, while meritocracy calls for real ability and function.


Elitism to me means that I won't listen to shitty music even if most people think it's OK, and I won't listen to music that's just OK. I'll hold out for the real experience thx!