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Jazz and the essence of metal

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 02:39:33 PM
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I see no one bothered to respond to Vorago...it seems to me that where jazz fails is not in its expression, but in its lack of structure.  Jazz is a random sequence of emotions, and while these may be beatiful in themselves, the fact that they are part of a random sequence means they have no contextual meaning.  In metal emotions are put in context of a logical, structured narrative allowing them to contribute to a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.  Jazz has alot of cool 'parts' but no unifying whole which would allow it to fully articulate an idea.


If you can't find the person (style) behind that sum of parts, you will never find the context. If there's no context, you can say then that Duke Ellington and John Coltrane sound exactly the same.

You can hear birdsongs in the violins of Vivaldi's Spring.

Can someone tell me a solid reason, why it couldn't be possible in jazz?

I found jazz cold once too, until I started to express with it my own momentary narrative.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
Jazz is the "art of improvisation", make music out of spontaneous emotions. It has much more to do with feelings than any other logically structure music, mainly classical. Still, jazz artists write their main melodies prior to performing. It's not just throwed at you like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ozt_3p_iLs

Some musicians have more talent in playing than composing. Take the "fusion" movement of the 70s for example. This often results in "musical masturbation".

musical masturbation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIbmkoxXm_4

not musical masturbation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX_mwDvcZ2I

a funny mix of both:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoJRlok3Ezk

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 04:30:43 PM
I see in the day I've left this topic people seem to have gotten their blood moving  ;)

Someone raised a good point here which was something to the effect of "Jazz is to be viewed from the eyes of the musician and metal from those of the philosopher". I think this is true, and Jazz approaches the communication of the idea differently, with development happening more on a vertical plane than horizontal. What I really don't understand is how Jazz is any more "random" than metal, other than the improvisational nature of it (which would not be called random by someone who can do it, but stuck-up metal semi-musicians who couldn't swing if their life depended on it hate the idea).
I challenge anyone who is dismissing Jazz to listen to some (real) Jazz, not the 95% commercial dog shit in the genre (like metal) but the few innovators. I particularly like the Dave Brubeck quartet (Time Out being the best album) and it is a great example of non-"random"-ness.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 08:56:38 PM
What are these ideas that Jazz expresses?

Examples?

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 10:07:28 PM
Spontaneousness, simply living the moment. Most of jazz philosophy is similar if not the identical to the beatnick philosophy. If you read some Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac, especially "On The Road", you might catch some of the ideas expressed in jazz music.

shadowmystic

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 20, 2007, 10:38:19 PM
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If you can't find the person (style) behind that sum of parts, you will never find the context. If there's no context, you can say then that Duke Ellington and John Coltrane sound exactly the same.

You can hear birdsongs in the violins of Vivaldi's Spring.

Can someone tell me a solid reason, why it couldn't be possible in jazz?

I found jazz cold once too, until I started to express with it my own momentary narrative.


That is starting to sound alot like individualism to me, which is what we're trying to avoid here.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 04:01:49 AM
Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)

Where is the relationship with the selfishness of modern society?

shadowmystic

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 04:08:00 AM
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Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)

Where is the relationship with the selfishness of modern society?


It sounded like you implied that the art is given meaning because it expresses the individual's emotions, I don't know if that's exactly what you meant but if it is, jazz has no will towards transcendence and is entirely individualistic, which is not true for metal or classical music.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 04:44:44 AM
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Spontaneousness, simply living the moment. Most of jazz philosophy is similar if not the identical to the beatnick philosophy. If you read some Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac, especially "On The Road", you might catch some of the ideas expressed in jazz music.

Don't you see this as the individual saying "I am not responsible for my actions in regards to their effect on society"? It seems too transient to keep my attention for too long, I think. Or did you mean it in some other way?

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 05:40:01 AM
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It sounded like you implied that the art is given meaning because it expresses the individual's emotions, I don't know if that's exactly what you meant but if it is, jazz has no will towards transcendence and is entirely individualistic, which is not true for metal or classical music.


Your will to trascend yourself, beggins, well, in you.

Tell me then, if you're sure that jazz musicians, at least the great, lack of that will.

shadowmystic

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 06:00:41 AM
Musically I think they do, although my knowledge of jazz is limited.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 07:03:23 AM
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I think it was pretty clear what you meant by form and message, which you've restated here as if these basic terms weren't understood.

"Message is what idea the artist is trying to communicate"

What if what they are trying to communicate is irrelevant?  Pointless?  Self-referential?  Mundane?

All art doesn't get a free pass simply because it is "art."

I'm sorry, just you saying '"message" (content)' made me think I was being misunderstood as by message I did not mean the content of the artwork.

Well, it makes it bad art doesn't it? But just because it is not trying to communicate some deep philosophical meaning, why should Jazz be discarded? Thats not what its trying to do, so why should it be judged on the same criterion as the so called "structured" music such as Classical and Black Metal?

Anyway, I've been looking at starting to listen to Dave Brubeck, Edrihan, or anyone else, do you have an suggestions on what album(s) should I start on and any other artists I may like?

shadowmystic

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 07:06:55 AM
So basically we should like jazz because it does a good job of expressing degenerate values?

People on this site generally want to get something out of music that goes beyond solipsistic, sentimental blather.  If you want to listen to jazz go ahead, but don't expect anyone here to think it's good.

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 09:06:30 AM
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Well, it makes it bad art doesn't it? But just because it is not trying to communicate some deep philosophical meaning, why should Jazz be discarded? Thats not what its trying to do, so why should it be judged on the same criterion as the so called "structured" music such as Classical and Black Metal?


Because without that meaning it will be the same thing as every other product, promoting same values as every other music but in jazz case with great craftmanship.
Somehow in Europe jazz seems to gain in popularity among young people with advancing globalization.

What will be your response if I say that  jazz is greatest musical achievement of modern society?

Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
October 21, 2007, 04:34:22 PM
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Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)


This is not a quality argument. Individualism is not inherent to each individual.

Jazz expresses spontaneity, huh? You have low fucking standards for your art. Jazz denies structure because it's incompetent at it, but structure is what communicates something unique to each piece.

Metal has it, classical has it, and some electronic music has it. I prefer that to every piece being a variation on the same old never-ending jam.

To the idiot who said that jazz is about feeling: what a pretentious retard you are. All music is about feeling, and has feeling. You're just being a pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are. I have news for you: stupidity and self-delusion aren't unique or different. You failed.