Breakdowns

[NEVR4GETLOL]

Are these ever acceptable?

[meganerd]

Of course!  All the American percussive death metal bands used breakdowns of one form or another.  Those of bands such as Suffocation and newer Immolation even sound somewhat like the braindead "hardcore" bands of the late 90s (read Dillinger Escape Plan, Himsa, etc.), but with one simple difference; they don't suck!  In other words, despite a similar overblown rhythmic drive, good breakdowns are well composed and have a reason for existing within a particularl composition.

It sounds like what you're really asking is, "Are metalcore / nu-hardcore bands ever acceptible?"  Well, I grew up in that late 90s hardcore scene, so honestly I think I'm a little nostalgicly biased towards it.  The one album from that scene that's probably worth checking out, objectively speaking, is Botch's "We Are the Romans."  Although the composition on those songs is much sloppier than with a good metal band, I would argue that the music exists for a purpose, and succeeds at creating atmosphere.  Certainly keeps me interested.  Of course, with a couple exceptions, the "breakdowns" on that album are hardly recognizable as such, since it's generally very polyrhythmic music.

I'm pretty sure I didn't answer your intended question...

[wEEman33]

I think the "evil twins" of pioneering New York death metal (Immolation and Incantation) were able to use this technique to great effect, but even other NYDM bands who helped to popularize the technique in metal (like Suffocation) have breakdowns that tend to straddle the boundary between being embarrassing/compelling.

Aside from those bands, practically every other attempt I've heard at integrating breakdowns into metal tends to fail in such that the breakdowns serve no purpose whatsoever besides creating moments that the audience can dance to.

[Christ Fucking Malarkey]

"Despise the Sun" is as close as Suffocation gets to embracing their hardcore influences, and it's still awesome.

A correction: I wouldn't term the slower passages employed by NYDM acts as "breakdowns". I correlate such changes with terms like "adagio" and "larghetto". Breakdowns usually employ a simplification of music to binary (sound vs. lack thereof), whereas bands like Incantion, for example, still utilize quite a bit of dynamism in order to maintain the right amount of tension.

[Apocalyptic Raves]

Just take a look at Slit Your Guts by Cryptopsy. At 1:58 on that song, it starts going into a breakdown. It seems to work well for that song, it's in good context.

If it wasn't in a Cryptopsy song, it would just be a metalcore breakdown, complete with pig sounding vocals, and a macho-man frontman who tries to look tough by shaving his head and gauging his ears.

Cryptopsy were never my favorite death metal band.

[wEEman33]

To my ears, Suffocation's breakdowns have always sounded like they were derived more from hip hop than hardcore, which is why they often sound so out of place in relation to the surrounding the music.

For the record though, I haven't listened to "Despise the Sun" in a couple of years; I'm just talking about the first three albums.

[born for banning]

The best breakdowns are part of a larger rhythmic structure, as in Deicide, and are used for quick abrupt transitions in rhythm. The worst are used as adornments, like in Skinless. Barf.

[Prospero]

It is only when the "breakdown" makes the song that we should start asking ourselves whether this music is worthy or not.

[Omnipotence]

Immolation- Higher Coward= Example of a good breakdown (doesn't sound like the cheesy, traditional by-the-numbers palm muted breakdown)

Any others with similar quality to this one?

[wEEman33]

Gorguts' "Orphans of Sickness" is the first one that comes to mind.

Incantation's "Onward to Golgotha" has a great one in  just about every other song.

Like a lot of issues in modern metal, the problem stems from the fact that there are too many bands who imitate the form of the technique without understanding the context and purpose in which it was originally used. These are the same bands who can't be bothered to come up with any original content, so they just emulate and remix a hodgepodge of older, "classic" content.

[Humanicide]

when bands start inserting breakdowns randomly just for the sake of having them, it becomes tedious and pointless. its whats wrong with this modern "scene" today.

Dillinger Escape Plan isnt hardcore. theyre something else and they dont use breakdowns, rather, they do use wierd off time rythmns.

[meganerd]

Dillinger Escape Plan isnt hardcore. theyre something else and they dont use breakdowns, rather, they do use wierd off time rythmns.

??

While DEP is hardly a worthy topic of conversation, they are clearly a harcore band (no, we're not talking about hardcore punk here, rather hardcore as defined by the current "scene"), and they clearly use breakdowns - in almost all their songs, at least on their first full length.  Breakdowns don't have to be in 4/4.

[Humanicide]

??

While DEP is hardly a worthy topic of conversation, they are clearly a harcore band (no, we're not talking about hardcore punk here, rather hardcore as defined by the current "scene"), and they clearly use breakdowns - in almost all their songs, at least on their first full length.  Breakdowns don't have to be in 4/4.

i know they dont have to be in 4/4. and i guess i mistook hardcore for meaning something else.

[Dunkelheit]

i know they dont have to be in 4/4. and i guess i mistook hardcore for meaning something else.

Modern hardcore is much separated from the hardcore punk of the past. It's breakdown obsessed, pit dancing, idiotic crowd music, with chorus like slogans for lyrics. Hardcore punk, was nihilistic, raw, and had more mature politics. They just didn't attack the spirit enough. They laid down techniques that were later used for great art, and stressed a DIY ethic, and valued the simplicity in music. They fell short though as they were not viewing the world holistically enough to get the big picture. They are much like other counter-cultures who understand that society has become corrupt and unhealthy, but wish to replace it with the same values just secularized. They realize the problem and throw the same solution at it that hasn't been working. Metal has gotten a bit beyond that, but is now stuck in between the state of nihilism and the affirmation of new values. Some people had ideas (black metal) but this really hasn't been implemented into reality yet. Multiculturalism is still preventing nationalism and tradition from continuing their natural role and niche. Crippling culture into a neutered product used to distract and retard humanity. We should worry about Multiculturalism making Nationalism extinct, as a parasitic or competing species can do to another lifeform. Though maybe nature will take its course and favor the more natural stronger system, or possibly this parasite will destroy it's host and thus also destroy itself.

[Humanicide]

Modern hardcore is much separated from the hardcore punk of the past. It's breakdown obsessed, pit dancing, idiotic crowd music, with chorus like slogans for lyrics.

thats exactly why i hate it so much when people call that drek "hardcore" its completely untrue.

im a big fan of hardcore punk, and most of those in this current "scene" have no idea who Black Flag is. worthless peons.