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Beethoven

Beethoven
February 16, 2008, 08:11:26 PM
After you get past how pretty a symphony sounds, this stuff is seriously metal.

I'm talking about the sixth symphony, which sounds like Summoning.

The third, which is like a lost, better version of Immortal's "Pure Holocaust."

Or the seventh, which is Burzum.

Or any of the processions, which are like Morbid Angel on mind expanding drugs.

At first, I missed the pounding drums and racing guitars, but those are so limited in dynamism that they would not permit this level of detail.

Listening to pieces of music that are 10-30 minutes long and interrelated causes I think a change in the listener. You start looking at the big picture.

This style of music is perhaps the most ambitious and interesting I've heard. It trains the ear to look for more, and expect it.

I'm sure there are other Beethoven fanatics here.

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 12:28:32 AM
Aye, his third and sixth are symphonic highlights for me. His "Ghost" piano trio is as awe-inspiring and melancholic as anything I've yet to hear in the realm of Classical.

chrstphrbnntt

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 02:03:48 AM
Speaking of Beethoven, it seems that many here have some odd obsession with Herbert von Karajan. He has an excellent "Eroica," but everything else is mostly fireworks. "Refreshing, but without any deep relevance," as Celibidache -- who does an amazing Bruckner (actually, I think von Karajan is at his best with Bruckner's 7th, my favorite recording of that symphony) -- put it.

I recommend Klemperer, Kletzki, Szell, Kubelik, Weingartner, Sotin, Toscanini and Furtwängler, as far as entire symphony cycles go. If you aren't a classical musician who hoards all of his money to spend on shit like this, Klemperer and Furtwängler are top-shelf. For a good recent "Emperor" concerto -- on a side note, I find this concerto's nickname humorous, seeing as Beethoven was so distraught over Napoleon naming himself Emperor of France -- try Bronfman's. Get Rostropovich + Ricther's recordings of the cello sonatas. Brendel + Solomon + Pollini should give you some perspective on the later piano sonatas. Alban Berg Quartet are the only way to go for the string quartets.

That's enough Beethoven to keep a newcomer occupied for a few years, I think.

---

For anyone that wants nihilist classical music, try Alfred Schnittke. It takes a special kind of fucked up individual to truly appreciate the man's intricately depressing music. Alban Berg Quartet & Borodin Quartet are good for his string quartets. I've not heard more than one recording of any of his symphonies. Gidon Kremer is a name to look for as far as the concerto grossi go. Boris Berman's recording of his piano music is utterly sublime. Lang Lang probably can't even read the fucking scores.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zx_hqHV_q-c

I am not into much 20th century classical, and I wouldn't blame any of you for not liking Schnittke -- then again, isn't Gorguts popular here? -- but he is mind-expanding. Morton Feldman, too.

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
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You start looking at the big picture.


Yes, indeed, it's what it creates for me taking for account that I'm not an expert in music theory. Good ol Ludwig Van refocuses ideas.

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 11:52:05 AM
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I recommend Klemperer, Kletzki, Szell, Kubelik, Weingartner, Sotin, Toscanini and Furtwängler, as far as entire symphony cycles go.


Actually, if you can handle another viewpoint, here it is:

Avoid Klemperer like the plague. He turns Beethoven into schmaltz. I spent many years disliking Beethoven because of the passionless, sentimental, weeping NPR-liberal style voice given to it by Klemperer. On a scale of one to ten, he is a 10 technically and a 0 artistically. Avoid like the fucking plague.

I feel similarly about Weingartner. Toscanini, Furtwangler and von Karajan get my vote. I would recommend for a beginner to go with von Karajan because of all of these, he understands the music the best, even if we can quibble over details. But if we look into that quibbling, we'll see that most of the people doing it in public (not in this forum) are talking to hear themselves talk. von Karajan does the best overall job of interpreting the spirit of the music, even if he takes some liberties (tempo) and has a monochromatic voice -- he's not trying to be the artist here, but the conduit of the artist, so that's appropriate. The trendy composers either try to be "100% historically-musically accurate" (a total illusion) or to dress up the music in some unnecessary accessories like hipsters. Don't fall for this bad psychology -- stick to von Karajan and Furtwangler.

As far as buying symphony cycles, I've never found one that is 100% perfect, but that's not what you want. You buy symphony cycles to learn the artist from the consistent viewpoint of a conductor who understands not just the music but the spirit. This is why people buy von Karajan for Bruckner and Beethoven and Jochum for Bruckner. Celibdache is OK by my lights but too modern in his dramatic interpretation. For the best man on Bruckner's 4th, try Salonen.

I've listened to classical music my whole life and am not inexperienced with art, so although I'm not an "authority" on these works, I know of what I speak. I know that some idiot will say "you seem to not like conductors of a certain ethnic background" and I will say this is coincidental, but that for any type of music, the best person to play it is a person who grew up in the culture that fomented it. I have heard enough idiots convert classical music into trash by stripping it of its real emotion and substituting furniture-store background music emotions in the most cheesy, schmaltzy way -- and all the press and the music instructors run their mouths like robots praising them. Don't believe the hype.

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 03:10:16 PM
Not to interrupt you nigoires mid-bicker, but these links are mandatory:

Ludwig van Beethoven MP3s at ANUS metal hall

Ludwig van Beethoven MP3s at CORRUPT forum


chrstphrbnntt

Re: Beethoven
February 17, 2008, 03:35:11 PM
Thanks for the response. I was really just trying to stress that hearing multiple recordings of specific pieces is the key to gaining perspective (actually understanding why Burzum is better than Satyricon, as opposed to just listening to the big guns), everything else being personal preference -- I enjoy von Karajan's 1-5 greatly, but the later symphonies just aren't to my liking. I didn't mean to come off so absolutist.

It's best for the listener to sample all of the big ones -- Kleiber, von Karajan, Toscanini, Bohm, Furtwangler, etc. -- and decide for himself.

Re: Beethoven
February 20, 2008, 01:47:59 PM
Quote

I've listened to classical music my whole life and am not inexperienced with art, so although I'm not an "authority" on these works, I know of what I speak. I know that some idiot will say "you seem to not like conductors of a certain ethnic background" and I will say this is coincidental, but that for any type of music, the best person to play it is a person who grew up in the culture that fomented it. I have heard enough idiots convert classical music into trash by stripping it of its real emotion and substituting furniture-store background music emotions in the most cheesy, schmaltzy way -- and all the press and the music instructors run their mouths like robots praising them. Don't believe the hype.


A perfect example of this is Bernstein's recordings of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony, particularly the Finale. If only it were a true Russian who knew the evils of the Soviet Union...

chrstphrbnntt

Re: Beethoven
February 20, 2008, 05:21:31 PM
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A perfect example of this is Bernstein's recordings of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony, particularly the Finale. If only it were a true Russian who knew the evils of the Soviet Union...


I think we can all agree that Bernstein is generally trash.  For Russian music, I suggest the somewhat obvious Mravinsky. One of my favorites, up there with Furtwangler, Toscanini, and Mengelberg, who was "the greatest pupil of Beethoven's greatest pupil."

Re: Beethoven
February 21, 2008, 11:33:57 PM
I thought I was weird for finding parallels between Beethoven's symphonies and a lot of metal.  I spent a couple weeks listening to Beethoven a lot, and I started thinking that if the material was performed on more modern instruments, it would likely fit into a metal album.  Its a cool thought.

Re: Beethoven
February 22, 2008, 12:40:40 AM
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If only it were a true Russian who knew the evils of the Soviet Union...


I have come to think that there was one man who understood the Russians, and he was a Christian named Dostoyevsky.

Re: Beethoven
February 22, 2008, 12:51:38 AM
i find his music so relaxing. i use it (and other classical works) to unwind and let my mind wander. i usually windup painting mental scenes and pictures with my mind. listening to Beethoven before i fall asleep usually leaves me feeling very tranquil in the morning.

and i know virtually no one here likes the idea of smoking weed, but i enjoy it once in a while, and listening to classical music certainly is a different experience. almost magical, i would say, in the context of being inebriated.

Re: Beethoven
February 22, 2008, 03:09:59 AM
I also listen to a lot of Beethoven shortly before sleep, and I love marijuana.  I don't care for this for this forum's interpretation of it.  I agree that it is misused a lot, and very few use it to its full potential, but if you have the right intentions, I think weed can be beneficial.

Flame time.

Re: Beethoven
February 23, 2008, 01:36:18 AM
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I also listen to a lot of Beethoven shortly before sleep, and I love marijuana.  I don't care for this for this forum's interpretation of it.  I agree that it is misused a lot, and very few use it to its full potential, but if you have the right intentions, I think weed can be beneficial.

Flame time.


I think this is the right approach. Unless others know you better than you know yourself, what others have to say about you means shit.

If you know what you're looking to achieve in life, and if alcohol, marijuana or anything else aids in your goal,  then use them.

Re: Beethoven
February 23, 2008, 12:20:31 PM
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If you know what you're looking to achieve in life, and if alcohol, marijuana or anything else aids in your goal,  then use them.


Behold the resourcefulness of the true nihilist!